Creative COW SIGN IN :: SPONSORS :: ADVERTISING :: ABOUT US :: CONTACT US :: FAQ
Creative COW's LinkedIn GroupCreative COW's Facebook PageCreative COW on TwitterCreative COW's Google+ PageCreative COW on YouTube
FORUMS:listlist (w/ descriptions)archivetagssearchhall of famerecent posts

MXO2 and Samsung monitors

COW Forums : Matrox Video Systems

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Share on Facebook
eyad HamamMXO2 and Samsung monitors
by on Dec 8, 2008 at 4:01:49 pm

Hello,
I'm thinking very seriously of buying an MXO2 within the next few weeks (probably right after new years), but am a bit worried. So far I haven't been able to find any reviews about how well it works as a grading and coloring tool.

Does anyone have any ideas about how accurate it is on an HDMI computer monitor. I'm think about getting the SamsungSyncMaster 2493HM but am open to other choices.

Also, I'm wondering if the up conversion and down conversion (both HD and SD) are truly in hardware: i.e. they don't take any processing power. I work in both Pal land and NTSC, and am wondering whether the conversions cause softness and/or artefacting.

I look forward to your replies.
thanx



Return to posts index
Reply   Like  

Andy MeesRe: MXO2 and Samsung monitors
by on Dec 9, 2008 at 11:25:06 am

>So far I haven't been able to find any reviews about how well it works as a grading and coloring tool.

Sorry Eyad, I don't use the MXO2's HDMI output for grading but it will certainly work well for driving a client viewing monitor. I've had no trouble calibrating the HDMI output to drive a cheap 37" LCD TV with excellent results (perfect bars) ... but I'm not sure that I'd necessarily want to perform any critical color correction on that screen. That said, I haven't done a side by side comparison with the calibrated HDMi output against a reference broadcast monitor.


>I'm think about getting the SamsungSyncMaster 2493HM

Not a good idea. That's a 1920x1200 display ... it won't work with the MXO2 which requires a 1920x1080 display.


>Also, I'm wondering if the up conversion and down conversion (both HD and SD) are truly in hardware

Yes, the up down and cross conversion is done in hardware.


>I work in both Pal land and NTSC, and am wondering whether the conversions cause softness and/or artefacting

Just for clarity, lest there be any confusion, the MXO2 does not do standards conversion (PAL <-> NTSC)



Return to posts index
Reply   Like  

eyad HamamRe: MXO2 and Samsung monitors
by on Dec 9, 2008 at 12:38:22 pm

Thanx Andy.
So what you're basically saying is that I'd probably still need a broadcast monitor connected to the MXO2 for proper color-grading, and that this monitor MUST be 1920*1080.
Has anyone tried it side by side with a broadcast monitor and have another opinion? Anyone from Matrox care to comment?

As for the NTSC/PAl issue, I know that the MXO2 doesn't do Pal/NTSC conversion, but since it only does the pulldown for 23.98 to NTSC, not Pal, I as wondering if there are any other Pal/NTSC differences in hardware.

Regards



regards

eyad hamam
http://www.eyadhh.com


Return to posts index
Reply   Like  


Andy MeesRe: MXO2 and Samsung monitors
by on Dec 9, 2008 at 2:06:03 pm

>So what you're basically saying is that I'd probably still need a broadcast monitor connected to the MXO2 for proper color-grading, and that this monitor MUST be 1920*1080.

Eyad, specifically, for HD output over HDMI you need an HDMI monitor with a 1920x1080 resolution. It also needs to support dot by dot mode otherwise there may be some unwanted scaling. This is all as documented on the MXO2 specs I think.

And no, apologies, I'm not saying you need specifically a "broadcast monitor" for proper color-grading at all, I was referring only to the unreliable quality of my own cheap LCD TV!


Return to posts index
Reply   Like  

eyad HamamRe: MXO2 and Samsung monitors
by on Dec 9, 2008 at 2:09:17 pm

Great. thanx again Andy.

I wonder why Matrox didn't post a list of recommended monitors. They probably don't want to endorse one brand over another, but I think it would be really helpful (hint hint)!

regards



regards

eyad hamam
http://www.eyadhh.com


Return to posts index
Reply   Like  

Andy MeesRe: MXO2 and Samsung monitors
by on Dec 9, 2008 at 3:47:10 pm

Yeah, I completely agree with you on that one, but there are so very very many different potentially suitable HDMI monitors on the market where the heck would you start the testing? And would Matrox have to buy one on or more of every one of these monitors to test (a sample of one would not necessarily be representative). Its a heck of a job .... but yes, it does seem increasingly that the lack of any officially "supported" displays seems to be quite a bit of a hinderance with would be buyers. (Hint Hint)




Return to posts index
Reply   Like  


Archie CruzRe: MXO2 and Samsung monitors
by on Dec 13, 2008 at 5:38:29 am

Well. Newbie member here. I've read this thread with bemusement. For reference, I'm reviewing the MX02 and have many of the same questions regarding a 'compliant' monitor. I asked Matrox for a response and have received none. One of the chief mysteries revolved around rumors that it would drive an Apple Cinema Display (As does the MXO). I'll find out tomorrow. Next is that Matrox doesn't offer any feedback with regard to the usefulness of the MX02 in accurately calibrating a computer monitor for color grading purposes. In other words, There's calibration using visual or even colorimetric 'tools' to deliver a theoretically Broadcast compliant chart but that may or may not ( as a result of gamma considerations) mean a broadcast compliant calibration.
To simplify, I suspect that:
- You can calibrate a computer monitor of the correct resolution - 1920x1080 and possessing the proper input HDMI/HDSDI but that may not meet the stricter requirements of Broadcast if the monitor cannot achieve a native gamma of 2.2
- Something like this will definitely be enough for color grading.
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?model_id=MDL101798
Keep in mind that color grading really refers to syncing video color to a baseline standard and THEN, adjusting it according to artistic intent IF that is the desire. Otherwise, the baseline is always a strict standard of color balance (through correction) plus Gamma.



Return to posts index
Reply   Like  

Andy MeesRe: MXO2 and Samsung monitors
by on Dec 14, 2008 at 4:29:41 am

Hey Archie

"One of the chief mysteries revolved around rumors that it would drive an Apple Cinema Display "

I've not heard that one ( do you have any link for that or was it just word of mouth? ) ... as it satands it doesn't offer direct DVI output nor support 1920x1200 native monitor resolutions. If you specifically need or want entry level color critical monitoring (on an ACD) then you need to look at the original MXO.

"Next is that Matrox doesn't offer any feedback with regard to the usefulness of the MX02 in accurately calibrating a computer monitor for color grading purposes."

From reading between the lines of posts from Matrox staff in other fora/threads it seems they might be looking at validating some monitors, "computer" or otherwise (HP Dreamcolor LP2480zx is one) but no clarification on that at present. Obviously though (or I'd have thought it was obvious) any user specifically needing to perform what might be called high end color correction needs to buy a professional reference monitor and feed it from the MXO2's HD-SDI output. However, what the MXO2 does also is try to offer is what might be considered "entry level" color correction capabilities by providing users who don't have a high end reference monitor (or the means to get one) with the capacity to properly calibrate the MXO2's HDMI output for their existing lower grade monitor. Clearly the capability and grade of that monitor would directly affect its suitability for that purpose ... again pretty obvious.
I was just browsing through the tech specs of the Toshiba Regazza RV and ZV LCD TV series ... 10 bit panel native 1080p panel with support for HDMI 1.3 / xvYCC Colour Space

If anyone has any experience of the Toshiba Regazza monitors then I'd like to know if the 100/120Hz mode can be disabled

Best
Andy



Return to posts index
Reply   Like  

Archie CruzRe: MXO2 and Samsung monitors
by on Dec 16, 2008 at 4:27:20 am

http://www.matrox.com/video/en/products/mxo2/watch_video/
Allow me to point out that ALL monitors depicted in Matrox's marketing videos are obscured to mask identity. The's an DV<>HDMI adapter made by Aja.



Return to posts index
Reply   Like  


Reid CaulfieldRe: MXO2 and Samsung monitors
by on Dec 26, 2008 at 6:20:58 pm

I also am looking for a suitable monitor. Has anyone tried the Dell 2409W? Seems to have the native resolution, but there's no mention of the so called "dot-by-dot" mode. Other users must be using something. Maybe it's time users started weighing in re what monitors they're using. The silence from Matrox on this matter is deafening.



Return to posts index
Reply   Like  

Archie CruzRe: MXO2 and Samsung monitors
by on Dec 26, 2008 at 10:26:11 pm

I'm guessing that a bunch of manufacturers are soon going to announce monitors that are compatible with the MX02. I would advise anyone that's contemplating a purchase of a 'Hybrid' computer/broadcast render or Playback (eg Plasma TV) / reference monitor to WAIT till the dust settles on Macworld, the first week of January. Unless you must buy for work in hand now, I'd wait 3 weeks and that's not long at all.



Return to posts index
Reply   Like  

Reid CaulfieldRe: MXO2 and Samsung monitors
by on Dec 26, 2008 at 11:04:14 pm

The MXO2 has been available for long enough that there should be a list of monitors somewhere. Waiting until Macworld is just kicking the can down the road & across the street to 3rd parties. What monitors have MXO2 users been using since the box started shipping? Maybe it's a national or trade secret? It's ridiculous. Again, I understand that Matrox may not want to endorse a particular monitor, but as I search for a workable monitor I have not been able to find the "dot by dot" mode anywhere. Maybe we should do a "Where In The World Is An MXO2-compatible Monitor" contest. Just looking for cogent answers without a shroud of mystery.



Return to posts index
Reply   Like  


Andy MeesRe: MXO2 and Samsung monitors
by on Dec 27, 2008 at 9:07:02 am

Guys, I'm not so sure that many of the first MXO2 users are using it for color critical reference on consumer grade LCD's/HDTV's/Computer monitors at all. I'd guess the first round of buyers were those who spotted the MXO2 as a rugged field unit for capture and playback by its various inputs and outputs with least of all of those outputs being HDMI for grading on a consumer display. Granted, a LOT of folks bought the original MXO specifically for its budget color grading appeal (although by no means all the purchases were with that in mind) but my feeling is that when the MXO2 was initially conceived and created it was designed for and expected to appeal to a quite different user base. In fact, IMHO, even calling it the MXO2 was probably a mistake as it invites direct comparison. I get the impression that the original MXO is/was intended to continue to sell to those who want entry level access to critical color correction on their ACDs and Dells or comparable computer displays, and that the fact that many of those potential MXO buyers have embraced the MXO2 instead and are now actively looking to set it all up and get it going with their consumer grade HDMI monitors has quite possibly taken Matrox a little by surprise. All very speculative of course, but either way I do think they must be increasingly aware of the clamor by some users to simply be told what monitor to buy in order to achieve the promised results. Hopefully they will put that to rights just as soon as they catch up to themselves. Bottom line, I don't think there's a lot more to it than that. A product endorsement conspiracy or mystery seems unlikely to me anyway.

Reid, regarding "dot by dot" mode, I'd doubt that you'll necessarily find that term specifically. Matrox may refer to it as dot by dot mode, more commonly its just referred to generically as 1:1 pixel mapping, but each manufacturer will have their own name ... for example, with the Toshiba Regazza I mentioned in the thread above its called "Exact Scan Mode", on Sony's Bravia models its called "Full Pixel" mode, Mitsubishi appear to call it Tru1080p™ mode etc etc

Here's a couple of links for your reference:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748074
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=31&threadid=2049206

Hope it helps
Andy


Return to posts index
Reply   Like  

Archie CruzRe: MXO2 and Samsung monitors
by on Dec 27, 2008 at 4:23:03 pm

Andy. Thanks for your lucid portrayal and excellent resources - I note that they are a bit out of date, vis a vis recent monitors including the JVC DT-V24L3DU & DreamColor LP2480zx . Not sure about the Dreamcolor but the JVC does indeed provide 1:1 pixel mapping.
Your assessment of the MX02>Monitor conundrum is probably very accurate. It happens often in technology that an unanticipated market sector seizes on a new product and embraces it for unintended uses.A case in point -I doubt that Canon expected to sell so many HV20's to pros that use it as a lightweight disposable, B-Roll HD camera!
The deal with the MX02 is that it's so versatile as a convergent box (Portable I/O & Display interface) it's viewed as a breakthrough 'Gimme' to a wider range of customers than say the Aja IOHD or tower cards. It's really the first buy for someone that's going to capture/edit on the road AND wants the same I/O for desktop workstation. I'll credit Matrox for having that much insight into the customer base.
So the upshot is that Matrox is probably overwhelmed with questions such as:
- Will my existing Plasma Display or LCD Monitor or soon... LED Monitor
play nicely with the MX02?
- Which Plasma Display or LCD Monitor or soon... LED Monitor will
play nicely with the MX02 and provide 1:1 Pixel Mapping
- Even though Pros already know that their high end Monitors will play nicely with the MX02, they will still be interested in knowing about the rest of the compatibility table since they may find themselves on the road or working in edit suites other than their own.
The monitors field is growing too fast and it's getting might confusing with the lines between acceptable Plasmas, LCDs and LED's of all manner of resolutions, color spaces etc. coming into play.Add tricky products like the Dreamcolor (It dithers for 10Bit etc) and you can understand the situation.




Return to posts index
Reply   Like  

eyad HamamRe: MXO2 and Samsung monitors
by on Dec 27, 2008 at 6:10:30 pm

Hi again,

It's just weird that there have been so few reviews and few discussions since the MXO2's release.

In any case, I'm not going to risk buying it especially as I need something that's guaranteed to give me accurate color on the go and that's been tried, tested and reviewed.

I decided to get the MXO for now with a SamsungT240 or HPw2448hc LCD for monitoring. If anyone has experience with either of these monitors I'd really appreciate the feedback. I know the 23 ACD is recommended but it's way more expensive and I can't see a difference in specs (and these monitors are much newer so hopefully the technology in them is also newer and better).

In any case, happy holidays and new year

regards



regards

eyad hamam
http://www.eyadhh.com


Return to posts index
Reply   Like  


eyad HamamRe: MXO2 and Samsung monitors
by on Dec 27, 2008 at 8:56:27 pm

sorry about that last post:
I was looking over specs and the color ranges of the two monitors I mentioned aren't that great: 80/85%
I think I'll go for the DELL ULTRASHARP 2408WFP which seems to have the best specs.

regards

regards

eyad hamam
http://www.eyadhh.com


Return to posts index
Reply   Like  

Reid CaulfieldRe: MXO2 and Samsung monitors
by on Dec 28, 2008 at 5:38:56 am

I almost bought the 2408WFP last week for use with the MXO2 but that its native resolution is higher that 1920 x 1080, which I understand will result in something other than "1:1" or "dot by dot" pixel mapping, the upshot being that the screen won't be full utilized and will exhibit black space around the edges. What does Dell call "dot by dot"?



Return to posts index
Reply   Like  

Andy MeesRe: MXO2 and Samsung monitors
by on Dec 28, 2008 at 8:36:45 am

Display Settings -> Wide Mode -> 1:1

http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/monitors/2408WFP/en/UG/operate.htm#Us...

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/monitors/display/dell-2408wfp.html
http://monitortest.blogspot.com/



Return to posts index
Reply   Like  


Andy MeesRe: MXO2 and Samsung monitors
by on Dec 28, 2008 at 12:26:12 am

Here you go Eyad ... not "proper" reviews as such but a step in the right direction:

http://www.lafcpug.org/phorum/read.php?1,222930,222930#msg-222930
http://www.lafcpug.org/phorum/read.php?1,221775,222145#msg-222145

Also a user testimonial (video) up on Matrox's website
http://www.matrox.com/video/en/products/mxo2/mxo2_video/


Return to posts index
Reply   Like  

eyad HamamRe: MXO2 and Samsung monitors
by on Dec 28, 2008 at 4:28:54 am

Hi Andy,

Thanx for the links. At least there are some reviews and the MXO2 looks good. But it seems obvious that using it for coloring with a mid-range monitor isn't recommended at the moment. The MXO can be used for just that, with the ACD and the Dell according to Matrox site.

I'm not gonna be buying for another 10 days at least... I may even wait a couple of weeks just to see if anything pops up at Macworld. I hope something does turn up in the meantime because I don't mind paying a bit extra to get an I/O device as well.

fingers crossed!

regards

regards

eyad hamam
http://www.eyadhh.com


Return to posts index
Reply   Like  

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Share on Facebook


FORUMSTUTORIALSFEATURESVIDEOSPODCASTSEVENTSSERVICESNEWSLETTERNEWSBLOGS

Creative COW LinkedIn Group Creative COW Facebook Page Creative COW on Twitter
© 2014 CreativeCOW.net All rights are reserved. - Privacy Policy

[Top]