re-stripiing sata drives

	Re: re-stripiing sata drives by Bob Zelin on Jul 1, 2009 at 8:25:01 pm Hi Mick, ProMax never made anything. You need to open up your MAC, and see what kind of SATA host card you are using. It's probably going to be a Cal Digit (it will be purple) or a Sonnet (it will be green). But pull it out and take a look. Both of these are RAID 0 products only, not RAID 5. But I dont' know what you have - you have to open up your computer and take a look. Once you do this (and maybe send me a link to the actual drive array you have), I can tell you the best way to go. When you work in HD, you will be using DVCProHD or ProRes422HQ - don't do uncompressed HD with your setup. I reread your post. You have an old Dual Core G5. This means that you either have a Sonnet X4P or a Cal Digit Fasta 4x. Let me know which one, and I will tell you how to proceed. Bob Zelin Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: re-stripiing sata drives by Bob Zelin on Jul 3, 2009 at 4:33:51 pm Hi Mick - if you have a MAC G5, you have either a Sonnet X4P (not E4), and if you have a Cal Digit, you have a Fasta 4x. Both cards used the same chipset - made by Silicon Image. ProMax experienced the exact same thing that I did, which is why they split the drive array into 2 volumes - 5 drives on one, and 5 drives on the other. The Silicon Image Chipset (the Sil3124) has an inherent problem, where the entire RAID group becomes corrupt, and disappears. You think that it is a bad drive, but it is not - it's a fault with the Sil3124. Your ProMax chassis is made by PDE in southern california. It has the mating port multipler chipset from Silicon Image in it, so you can use a single cable per chassis to run 5 drives. I know this product well. EVERYONE that used an eSATA port mutliplier - Cal Digit, Sonnet, DatOptic, Dulce - all have the exact same problem. The drives ultimately disappear. When you stripe 10 drives together at RAID 0, you are BEGGING for trouble, and you will ultimately lose all of your media. The same problem happens with 2 groups of 5, but at least you get to keep half of your media. Of course, with only 5 drives stripped RAID 0, you barely get over 200Mb/sec, so you can barely do uncompressed HD. For this configuration, you need all 10 drives, but let me assure you they will fail, and you will get screwed. So what is the correct solution - a modern RAID 5 array that uses a host controller from ATTO, Areca or Cal Digit. These new (expensive) products do not suffer the problems that the Silicon Image port multipler chipset had (your ProMax). Feel free to delete the RAID groups, and restripe all 10 drives together as one big RAID 0 group, so you can get about 300Mb/sec, and get sustained performance to do uncompressed HD. Your array will fail in about 6 months, and you will lose everything. This is the very reason Cal Digit no longer sells the S2VR (which made them famous at the beginning). There was no fix, becuase NO ONE could get cooperation from Silicon Image. Bob Zelin Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: re-stripiing sata drives by Bob Zelin on Jul 4, 2009 at 2:54:44 pm how do restripe ? Applications>Utilities>Disk Utility. Select your RAID Group and DELETE the RAID Group. You will now see single bare drives. If you can't delete the raid group, put in one drive at a time, and erase or repartition one drive at a time, until they are single drives. Once all the RAID groups are gone, click on the RAID tab in the disk utility, drag all 10 drives to the center box, and do a RAID 0 stripe with all 10 drives (silly boy - you will regret this). If you have a G5, and you have a Sonnet E4P, you must have the Power Mac Quad - the only G5 that had PCI-e slots. You can quickly confirm this by seeing if your MAC has 2 ethernet ports on the rear - this is the Mac Quad G5. If you have problems, let me know. PS - in case no one told you, you really don't need uncompressed HD -everyone these days is using ProRes422HQ or DVCProHD. (and AVID DNxHD in AVID land). Bob Zelin Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: re-stripiing sata drives by John Fishback on Jul 4, 2009 at 4:54:11 pm You've not mentioned anything about backup. In view if what Bob's told you I suggest you back up your RAIDs every day. That way when it fails you won't be totally screwed. John MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz 8 GB RAM OS 10.5.5 QT7.5.5 Kona 3 Dual Cinema 23 ATI Radeon HD 3870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE Enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5 Final Cut Studio 2 (up to date) Pro Tools HD w SYNC IO, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec Monitors, PrimaLT ISDN Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: re-stripiing sata drives by Bob Zelin on Jul 4, 2009 at 6:53:41 pm but John, it costs MONEY to backup all those terabytes of storage. Can't I just pray and hope ? bob Zelin Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: re-stripiing sata drives by John Fishback on Jul 4, 2009 at 8:27:03 pm Praying is good. John MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz 8 GB RAM OS 10.5.5 QT7.5.5 Kona 3 Dual Cinema 23 ATI Radeon HD 3870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE Enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5 Final Cut Studio 2 (up to date) Pro Tools HD w SYNC IO, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec Monitors, PrimaLT ISDN Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: re-stripiing sata drives by Ramona Howard on Jul 6, 2009 at 12:01:23 am Mick, About the only thing you can do is at least have an "important folder" where you can then run a cron job on to copy data over to somewhere else for a backup, even if it's off to LTO (if you have it). This way at least if you do loose a drive, you don't loose all your really hard to re-create stuff. SAVE YOUR EDLS AND BATCH LISTS in this folder, this way you can always re-create easily! I would like to add that Bobs comment, that you don't need uncompressed, I disagree with. It depends on where your project will end up and how many steps in between it will take before it gets there. ProRes and DVCPro DO NOT replace uncompressed by any means. EVERY time you re-render or re-Compress those formats YOU WILL loose quality! so for example, you bring in as say ProRes, and you render it out as ProRes (with whatever effects/transitions/etc... applied) your content is de-graded, you bring that into a color app and re-render it out again, more de-grading and so on..... "Choose your weapons wisely" and strive to put the very best quality out there for the job. This is what will make you a professional, not simply because you own a computer that can edit! It isn't easy and it certainly isn't cheap to do this.....good luck in whichever route you take. Cheers, Ramona Play hard today, it may be raining tomorrow! Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: re-stripiing sata drives by Bob Zelin on Jul 6, 2009 at 1:07:53 am I know the drill. Pitchmen on Discovery was shot with DVX200 P2 cameras all DVCProHD - but this is Discovery internal. When outsourcing they have insane delivery requirements, so I fully understand your situation. Bob Zelin Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: re-stripiing sata drives by Jeff Mack on Jul 9, 2009 at 1:41:18 am Here's my 1 cent on a poor boy approach (we've all had 'em) Keep it raid 0. Do your job quickly. When it's done, media manage to a folder. Then back that folder up to ESata drives. See, no money spent - that's what you wanted and I'm sure Bob is happy. P.S. - there is no rational solution to your problem except to get along as long as you can and the longer you get along, the less likely you will have the money to do it right. So wait till you are screwed and then be forced to get the right workflow. Believe me, I don't mean to criticize, I don't have the dough to do what I need to do a lot of the times either but since you asked, and everyone gave you their opinions, I think you probably answered your own question. Jeff Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: re-stripiing sata drives by Jeff Mack on Jul 9, 2009 at 2:55:23 am Well I guess since you have the deck I would have to ask why uncompressed? Why not Pro res HQ and lay back to tape if you must. There are all sorts of ESata raids and now Bob may chime back in to tell you about Cal DIgit. Jeff Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: re-stripiing sata drives by Jeff Mack on Jul 9, 2009 at 3:35:35 am I could be wrong and a lot of the times I am but I don't think anyone requests uncompressed. After all, your 900 is compressed to tape. Surely there is no reason to capture uncompressed and stay that way through editing and then to delivery? Jeff Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: re-stripiing sata drives by Jeff Mack on Jul 9, 2009 at 2:14:16 pm Hello Mick, Seems like you are out of touch with the current technology. Try capturing some footage to Pro Res HQ and put it through some typical editing. Most people can't tell the difference. The cool thing about Pro Res is that it is pretty easy on the cpu. Therefore, Buy some ESata enclosures and utilizre the drives you already own. Jeff Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: re-stripiing sata drives by Ramona Howard on Jul 9, 2009 at 2:59:49 pm With multiple layers, re-rendered, compressed down to something else.....you sure can! Mick, kudos for wanting to deliver the best...... If at all possible capture uncompressed, EDIT with whatever, conform back to the uncompressed and deliver on the required format (which will be a compressed format). If you don't have the conform capabilities, then edit uncompressed. The one thing that people forget is that uncompressed is far less processor intensive and requires just lots of thruput. Format didn't come up, so lets just assume we are talking 8bit 4:2:2. At aprox 174mbs, this can be done with as few as 4 drives(Raid0) on the right system (gotta figure in overhead). The downside is it takes up lots of space....... Now onto stripping..... Like I said, if you HAVE to take the chance with RAID0, then just make sure you back up all your EDLs & batch lists, so if you must, you can ALWAYS re-create easily. If you do want to back up important content, then set up a simple two drive Raid5 (using large capacity drives) and run a cron nightly. Keep in mind that a 2 drive Raid won't hold very much, which will force you to work in smaller chuncks if you want protection and you will constantly have to write over this data. *If your simply looking to back up nightly and not concerned with thruput then almost anything will do the trick for you (lots of options). This will allow you to limp by....just keep in mind the more data the longer this back-up will take and the Raid5 drive/s won't be able to soak up the data as fast as what the drives feeding them will deliver. This can be a VERY painful process working with small drive arrays in uncompressed. There are lots of storage solutions around and Bob is certainly someone who can recommend what will work best for the Mac (I can only recommend what we do). Hipahipa, Ramona Play hard today, it may be raining tomorrow! Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: re-stripiing sata drives by Ramona Howard on Jul 9, 2009 at 7:42:20 pm Steve, My bad, you are correct. Ramona Play hard today, it may be raining tomorrow! Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: re-stripiing sata drives by Ken Jones on Jul 9, 2009 at 6:26:05 pm I don't know if my configuration would work for your needs, but here's my set up. I have a five drive enclosure striped as a 7.5 TB RAID 0 (5 X 1.5TB). I have a second identical RAID 0 enclosure I back up to every 24 hours. My Mac Pro has four internal drive bays: 1. System Drive, 2. System Drive Backup, 3. Resources (various files I use for multiple projects - i.e. production music), 4. Resources Backup. My back up software (Synchronize! Pro X - $99) backs up the System drive at 3:00 AM, Resources drive at 3:30 AM, and RAID at 4:00 AM. I ordered the RAID enclosures from MacGurus.com. These enclosures (loaded with drives) are $1459 each. Each enclosure has a port multiplier. The enclosures are hooked up with eSATA cables to a Lycom eSATA-4e PCI card ($90). Rick at MacGurus is very helpful and knowledgeable and helped me come up with this system. I usually work in 1920X1080i ProRes and this system has been working great. If I have captured a bunch of footage I will sometimes manually back up the RAID before its scheduled time. MacGurus sells larger enclosures with more drives - which you might need for uncompressed HD. Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: re-stripiing sata drives by John Fishback on Jul 9, 2009 at 6:44:08 pm I've done something similar to Ken. I bought a PDE enclosure with 8 750GB Hitachi drives running off an ATTO R380 Sata card. It's a bit more expensive, but still very cost-effective. I get an average write rate of 584 MB/s and average read rate of 705 MB/s using the AJA System Test with 1920x1080 10-bit RGB file selected. John MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz 8 GB RAM OS 10.5.5 QT7.5.5 Kona 3 Dual Cinema 23 ATI Radeon HD 3870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE Enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5 Final Cut Studio 2 (up to date) Pro Tools HD w SYNC IO, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec Monitors, PrimaLT ISDN Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: re-stripiing sata drives by Dino Sanacory on Jul 12, 2009 at 1:56:03 pm Wow. this is a crazy long thread. First, you wont be capturing to ProRes on a G5. Really need an Intel (Mac Pro) system to handle the conversion. Second, you cannot do RAID 5 with your current setup. This requires dedicated hardware. Your options are either RAID 0 (what you have now) or RAID 1 (protection but no speed gain). You might be able to make some sort of RAID 0+1 (which eats half your total capacity for redundancy) for speed plus protection though I wont promise it would be stable especially since you are relying on the CPU to handle the RAID management. Competent RAID 5 (or 6) storage systems use a dedicated hardware RAID controller. This can either be build into the chassis or be a card that sits in the computer and often uses a proprietary interconnect between the card and chassis. The problems you are having with the drives now could be any number of things, a bad drive, problems in the enclosure, with the cables, or even the SATA card. If I was in this situation, I would start puling everything apart, blowing out any dust, checking internal connections, trying new SATA cables. Maybe even attempt to individually format each drive in a known valid setup to see if any drives are dead or perhaps something about the current state of the setup is locking up Disk Utility. I've definitely been there. Nothing works until you do something you shouldn't have to do and then everything is just fine. I wouldn't try to add RAID 5 capability to your current setup. Could just be one nightmare on top of another and it sounds like you are in over you head already. I also wouldn't recommend you attempt any sort of roll your own setup but rather that you buy a complete system. Two possibilities, the 8TB models will run between $5 or 6K: http://www.caldigit.com/HDOne/ http://www.sonnettech.com/product/fusiondx800raid.html Warning, many of these systems are very picky about card placement, system configuration, and OS versions. Make sure your setup is correct or you will have troubles. Regarding your "nightmare" with Promax. For as much as this and other pro equipment costs, I've had plenty of problems with new out of the box gear over the years. It's just the nature of cutting edge technology. Don't plan on it working right on day one. It often does but it doesn't always. I personally had trouble with an above mentioned CalDigit HDOne. Futzed with it for a couple days, several exchanges with tech support, sent it back. the replacement dropped right in and went to work without a hitch and has been stable for months now. Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: re-stripiing sata drives by John Fishback on Jul 12, 2009 at 2:29:36 pm I believe I paid around $3600 for the PDE 9-drive enclosure (I only mounted 8 drives in it-one's a spare), 9-750GBB Seagate drives and the R380 ATTO card. Condre was the company that put the enclosure and drives together. John MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz 8 GB RAM OS 10.5.5 QT7.5.5 Kona 3 Dual Cinema 23 ATI Radeon HD 3870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE Enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5 Final Cut Studio 2 (up to date) Pro Tools HD w SYNC IO, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec Monitors, PrimaLT ISDN Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index