Proper Formatting for HDCAM Finish
by Ryan Krickow
on
May 27, 2008 at 2:49:27 am
I'm editing 24p 1920x1080 Uncompressed 10 bit 4:2:2 on Final Cut Pro and I need to finish on HDCAM. If I brought a Quicktime Movie to a Post House would they be able to transfer that to HDCAM or would I need to convert the footage into 1440x1080 interlaced first? I'd prefer to master to HDCAM SR but the delivery requirements won't allow for this.
Re: Proper Formatting for HDCAM Finish by Mads Nybo Jørgensen on May 27, 2008 at 2:19:56 pm
Hey Ryan.
Quicktime movie should be fine (Alternatively a sequential file might give you a faster render out and a better quality) - just be clear to whether you are editing 23.97 or 24? And how are you doing the sound?
Don't worry about converting the file to 1440*1080, The HD-CAM VTR will do this free of charge for you :-) provided that your post house is using a standard HD-SDI transport.
All the Best
Mads
London, UK
Mac Million Ltd. - HD Production & Editing
Please watch our latest video on Data Protection at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVyv_lTywwc
Blog: http://blog.myspace.com/bigflopproductions
Re: Proper Formatting for HDCAM Finish by Ryan Krickow on May 28, 2008 at 5:52:03 am
Thanks for the advice. May I ask, what is a sequential file? Also, the delivery requirements ask for either 23.98 or 29.97 fps. My question is... what is the difference between 23.97 and 23.98? Both can be progressive but neither is true 24P correct? So, in this case I would be converting a true 24P video into 23.98 interlaced?
Re: Proper Formatting for HDCAM Finish by Shane Ross on May 28, 2008 at 7:02:05 am
[Ryan Krickow]"what is the difference between 23.97 and 23.98?"
Well, 23.98 is 23.976 rounded up. So they are essentially the same thing. 23.976 is the actual frame rate, but we shorten it.
[Ryan Krickow]"Both can be progressive but neither is true 24P correct?"
No...that's 24p. If you are thinking 24 solid FPS, that is film. Video needs to be 23.98 (23.976) fps. Sure...HDCAM SR can do 24fps solid, but that is for printing to film or telecine from film. Not for broadcast delivery. And 23.98 fps does transfer to 24FPS well enough if needed.
[Ryan Krickow]"So, in this case I would be converting a true 24P video into 23.98 interlaced?"
23.98 isn't interlaced. Never was, never will be. 29.97 is. Also known as 60i (interlaced fields) or 30i (interlaced frames). Both mean the same thing.
Re: Proper Formatting for HDCAM Finish by Tim Kolb on May 28, 2008 at 12:11:06 pm
[Shane Ross]"23.98 isn't interlaced. Never was, never will be. 29.97 is. Also known as 60i (interlaced fields) or 30i (interlaced frames). Both mean the same thing."
I think he's thinking of HDCAM's storage of progressive material as interlaced. PsF, or "progressive segmented frame" is probably where the 'interlaced' idea came from, and is a system of conveying and storing progressive footage in a system largely designed for interlaced...
Bottom line is that the 'interlaced' portion of the thing is HDCAM internal only...the rest of your workflow would be progressive. HDCAM's footage will play out as progressive and it ingests a progressive signal at a 23.976 framerate.
Re: Proper Formatting for HDCAM Finish by gary adcock on May 28, 2008 at 1:23:03 pm
[Shane Ross]
"[Ryan Krickow] "So, in this case I would be converting a true 24P video into 23.98 interlaced?"
23.98 isn't interlaced. Never was, never will be."
What you are referring to Ryan is called a Progressive Segmented Frame- and it is the standard for ALL 1080 Playback- even for filmout.
So the NLE sees and handles all the frames as progressive, however when played back on a display, every frame is separated into 2 fields to offset the "Judder" of the direct viewing of 24fps content, which is very disconcerting to the human eye. This is NO different than viewing a theatrical release, where the projectors shutter opens and closes twice on every frame being shown on the big screen.
This is done to allow for legacy playback of older non progressive content on the same systems. All cameras that capture progressively into an interlaced format ie: all HDV, even progressive SD content is handled in this same manner.
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD
Re: Proper Formatting for HDCAM Finish by Mads Nybo Jørgensen on May 28, 2008 at 7:15:52 am
Hey Ryan.
Sequential files are just that, also known more commonly as a Targa or Tiff sequence - but it could be any file format in a sequence.
At this point you must take your "delivery requirements" to the post house and let them advice you. The history of post houses is littered with better knowing people losing money on not using the experience of their hired guns. If you don't trust your post house, find another one. Otherwise, let them take the headache away from you.
And really, you shouldn't even have started the camera rolling without knowing where the final result was going to end up ;-)
All the Best
Mads
London, UK
Mac Million Ltd. - HD Production & Editing
Please watch our latest video on Data Protection at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVyv_lTywwc
Blog: http://blog.myspace.com/bigflopproductions
Re: Proper Formatting for HDCAM Finish by Ryan Krickow on May 28, 2008 at 9:01:09 am
We haven't begun shooting yet. Sorry if I made it sound otherwise. I'm just trying to get an idea of potential hurdles I might face. Thank you for all your advice!
Re: Proper Formatting for HDCAM Finish by Steve Wargo on May 29, 2008 at 6:16:08 am
We do this every week and it works just fine. Your sequence should be 23.98 for DVD or TV.
Put the complete job on a mobile drive. They will import it onto a raid, render it and test it for output.
They should pre-stripe a tape to start at 58:30 and set your timeline to match with the program starting at 01:00:00:00.
Make sure that your audio is on the correct channels. Get the "Deliverables" sheet from the client and give that and the contact info to your post house so that the technical people can compare notes.
Don't finish in 24 unless you're doing a film out.
We usually get $ 500 for a feature film, plus tape at $ 100. Only some accept SR because then, they need a very expensive deck to play it. HDCAM plays on a $ 17,000 JH-3.
Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!
Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1 HD .
Re: Proper Formatting for HDCAM Finish by Ryan Krickow on May 29, 2008 at 11:21:01 am
My plan was to lay the movie to tape before doing the final sound mix that way I would have the picture all ready for sound. I'd use a flash frame in order to sync the audio when we lay it back to tape. I'm not sure what format sound wants picture on- I read for the mix it's best to give them a master tape.
The master tape is going to be for screening at festivals. I asked for the technical specifications and they were very basic and didn't include any kind of information besides frame rate, tape format, and audio formats. What are standard heads and tails to put on a tape? I read that a pretty standard setup would be... start at hour 58:00:00:00, put thirty seconds of 7.5 IRE black, then 60 seconds of SMPTE color bars with pluge and tone, then 30 more seconds of 7.5 IRE black. Picture should then start exactly at hour 1:00:00:00. I'm not sure if I can create pluge in FCP so I might have to skip that. Finally, how do you ensure that the color bars and tone actually match the audio and video levels of your film? Again, I've read that there are often mistakes made by the editors in this department.
Re: Proper Formatting for HDCAM Finish by Mads Nybo Jørgensen on May 29, 2008 at 11:38:50 am
Hey Ryan.
So you are no longer using a post house, but doing it all in-house including mastering to tape?
Anyway, start bars & tone at 09:58:00:00 till 09:59:30:00 where you put in your leader. Master programme starts at 10:00:00:00, with sync blob at -2 seconds and +2 seconds after end of programme. If you're going to a 35mm print keep your reels at a max of 15 minutes in length.
Ask your sound people what they prefer - mine normally wants a white latte to go with the mix.
Just make sure that both picture and sound has sync blobs in both ends of the master - preferably in the same location across all tracks...
[Ryan Krickow]"Finally, how do you ensure that the color bars and tone actually match the audio and video levels of your film? Again, I've read that there are often mistakes made by the editors in this department." That is a bit of a stupid comment - the bars are standard! Everything else follows them, so if the editor has f****d around with the grade and sound on the main programme, or done at all, then the picture will look like a mistake and you might as well play it back mute.
Listen, I understand that a professional might be too expensive to hire, but if you did you'll also find out that in HD Land, and if its not for broadcast, there isn't really such thing as a standard. If you like what you see on your properly calibrated monitor, then you can push your levels upwards past broadcast standard - the only golden rule to follow, is to keep your blacks consistent throughout.
All the Best
Mads
London, UK
Mac Million Ltd. - HD Production & Editing
Please watch our latest video on Data Protection at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVyv_lTywwc
Blog: http://blog.myspace.com/bigflopproductions
Re: Proper Formatting for HDCAM Finish by gary adcock on May 29, 2008 at 12:46:56 pm
[Ryan Krickow]" heads and tails to put on a tape? I read that a pretty standard setup would be... start at hour 58:00:00:00, put thirty seconds of 7.5 IRE black, then 60 seconds of SMPTE color bars with pluge and tone, then 30 more seconds of 7.5 IRE black."
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
NEVER NEVER set black levels in HD to 7.5 IRE, that is an analog SD standard- In HD ( and all Digital SD) IRE is set to 0
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD
