A Centillion number of formats and standards

	Re: A Centillion number of formats and standards by Ramona Howard on Jan 19, 2008 at 6:13:25 pm Paul, you hit a nerve :) My question is why is this any different from tape formats over the years. Many reasons can contribute to this and unless we are a fly on the wall in their meetings one will never know the real reason. 1. In order to push hardware to achieve what you need it sometimes requires re-inventing the wheel, or at least part of it. An example would be a new format that can pack more metadata or read header info faster, etc....this list is long and can get very technical. 2. Market share. Come up with a proprietary solution, you must use that solution. 3. With changing industry needs older formats simply don't meet ALL of the requirements. Many formats will get you part way there but when you can have it all with a new format, whala...and it's usually proprietary. I'm with you on standardization, which is why we went native DPX. Widely supported, gives us pretty much everything we need and allows room for some custom stuff that doesn't effect other apps BUT I can also say from an engineering perspective, things will change if they must.... My biggest concern with so many formats is simply the packing of the data properly. Some squash the range and some don't without a word, you gotta dig to find the truth. This screws with gamma among other things, which makes it difficult to compare apples to apples on an image, regardless of the format it resides in. We don't run into this as DPX can pack the full range (where in film work this is important) but we can also pack the SMPTE range for the TV guys if it's a must. Everyone we deal with understands the difference, how the image is effected and handles it accordingly for the specific projects. We can also capture in at full range and play it out in SMPTE range if need be which allows them to work with a single type of DPX if they wish for both film and TV. I have to say 90% of our users are in a 444 RGB full range mode yet do a huge variety of work for both film and TV and the point is, it really doesn't have to be that complicated. I tried to keep this simple, please forgive if your beyond this. Cheers, Ramona Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: A Centillion number of formats and standards by Bob Zelin on Jan 19, 2008 at 6:45:58 pm No one is angrier than me about this subject (and I am one angry guy anyway). You are absolutely correct, and as you know, the number of HD formats KEEPS INCREASING (like the Sony XDCam EX and Pana AVC Intra, for example, and more are coming). There used to be something called the SMPTE committee (who still exist, and are morons, and now almost no one listens to them). But "back in the day", I remember asking Ampex why so many Sony 1" Tapes would not play back on Ampex 1" VTR's, and their response was "because Sony doesn't follow SMPTE standards". Of course, this migrated to analog component format, where there was the "SMPTE" standard (and SMPTE N10 as well), and the Sony Beta format, where the levels were different. Of course, now, this is all nothing compared to the insanity that we face right now. Sony and Panasonic are in competition, and it is obvious that the SMPTE committee or EBU is powerless to dictate to these companies. And with new 4K products coming out, it just gets worse. Add all the different compression codecs out there, and the varying frame rates that are being used for shooting - well, you know how insanely confusing it is. I often say to Oliver Peters "we are supposed to be the experts in Florida, but the more I work in HD, the more I realize how little I know, and how ignorant I am of all of this stuff". So what is the bottom line answer here - SMPTE is powerless, the FCC is powerless, and you and I - we are NOBODY, and no matter what "committee" gets formed, Sony and Panasonic (and others) will continue to do whatever they want to continue to try to make a profit. When people ask me "what HD format should I choose" - I only have one answer - "how the hell should I know !". Bob Zelin Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: A Centillion number of formats and standards by Andrew Kimery on Jan 20, 2008 at 7:43:01 pm I'll hop on the rant bandwagon as well. My catch phrase is that HD is the most un-standard standard ever created. If you say NTSC or PAL you pretty much know what you are getting. But saying ATSC is just about as broad as saying "video" and this is w/o even talking about all the different codecs out there. It's just insane. Did you shoot to a card, a disc, a tape, a HDD? HDCAM, HDCAM SR, XDCAM HD, XDCAM EX, DVCPro HD, HDV1, HDV2, AVCHD, AVC-intra, Canon's 24f mode, REDcode? Is it interlaced or progressive? 720 or 1080? Full raster or anamorphic pixels? 60, 50, 30, 25 or 24 fps? "Real" 24fps or 23.976? Ugh. -A Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index

	Re: A Centillion number of formats and standards by Michael Hancock on Jan 22, 2008 at 3:48:19 am Rant alert from an HD amateur: I can add no experience or knowlege to this conversation regarding HD formats and framerates because everything I've ever done has been SD 30fps with drop-frame timecode. That took me long enough to get my head around. However, I read this forum constantly and every other forum that remotely relates to HD because one day I will have to/get to work in HD. When that day comes, despite everything I've read and tried to understand, I will know absolutely nothing and will likely be completely lost. It will be like I'm starting all over again. Why? It's already been said--because there are far too many codecs, framerates, and whatever else there is to learn/worry about. When I started editing I couldn't wait for HD to become standard because I was sure that all the crap associated with standard def NTSC versus PAL (16-235 v. 0-255 levels, 30 fps v 25, 29.97 timecode to get an accurate running time, etc...) would go away and we could just concentrate on telling a good story/making a good commercial and the technical details would be easier. Well, that dream is shot, isn't it? Although the silver lining, I suppose, is that those who do understand and can work with the ever changing formats and "standards" will be in higher demand. But then again, you'll not only need to know all the details of a bazillion different "standards" but you'll have to know how to edit, color correct, shoot, direct, produce, composite, create motion graphics, and act. For $20/hour. Sorry for the rant. Hope it's not too off-topic or unwelcome. Michael. Respond to this post   •   Return to posts index