HDCAM or RED ?
by Glaremedia
on
Sep 11, 2007 at 5:11:44 pm
Small production company, shooting on dvcam (DSR450) and digibetacam, we are now looking to move to HD, the natural path would be HDCAM 790 and a D1800 VTR and that would be great (happy with tape !) Total cost around
Re: HDCAM or RED ? by Leo Ticheli on Sep 11, 2007 at 6:29:46 pm
We are on the verge of a great sea change, perhaps the biggest in our industry since the introduction of the 3/4" VCR: the death of tape, not just as a capture medium, but also as an archival medium.
I'll never forget the day I drove past my local TV station and saw the shiny stainless steel film processor piled up against the dumpster. Almost overnight, 3/4" decks replaced 16MM film for acquiring news. Across the country the guys who operated the processors, the "film at eleven" people, were all out of a job.
Personally, I feared that horrible medium, 3/4" would never die and shuddered every time I had to send my reel on it to an agency. Why the ad industry clung to it I just don't understand, but finally the DVD did it in.
Now there are powerful forces aligning to kill off tape; increased solid-state storage at dramatically reduced prices, the emergence of cameras capturing to media other than tape, and the ubiquity of electronic transmission.
This is extraordinarily bad news for companies enjoying VCR sales. Why spend many thousands for a tape deck unless your business is working with out-of-house materials delivered on tape? If you control your entire work flow, a non-tape solution will make better sense in the near future if not right now.
Starting in 2008, I plan to archive everything to hard drives as a temporary measure; as soon as solid state achieves the capacity/cost of tape, it's game over for tape. I'll copy the hard drives to some sort of solid state. The big losers? Not just tape, tape machines, and VCR based cameras, but also FedEx and UPS.
Let's face it, moving parts are the enemy; the future will always belong to the integrated circuit. Unless we're talking about sentiment; then my 35 year-old mechanical watch rules; it's not as accurate, but that's a small price to pay for beauty.
Now, to your question of RED camera vs. 3/4" chip HD camera. A fully configured RED camera will be somewhat cheaper, primarily because you don't need a deck (unless your customers demand it, of course!), and the RED will make far superior pictures.
You will more than likely discover that the RED operates much more like a film camera; that probably means a slower working pace. Not everyone agrees, but I strongly believe I'm right about this. If you shoot run and gun and absolutely must have a filter wheel rather than a box of big ND filters and someone to clean and change them, the traditional HD camera might be right for you.
Also, you could consider an HD camera from Panasonic recording to P2 cards. Very pretty pictures, very fast and easy operation in the field, and no deck required. Also cheaper than a fully configured and lensed RED.
Re: HDCAM or RED ? by Redflag on Sep 12, 2007 at 8:07:55 am
I agree totally moving parts are the enemy.If P2 cards were $30 for 40mins I think most freelancers would buy one of the cameras tomorrow.
But isnt that the crux of it,Iam not sure but I think its more like $900 for 40mins,or anyway no where near the price of a tape or DVD (XDCAM).And no one wants to be downloading cards during shooting or at the end of a 10hr day.
Do Panasonic know something we dont? they have said the HDX900 is their last tape camera.But how can P2 work for freelencers,except with the cards being way much cheaper.
Re: HDCAM or RED ? by Jeff Brown on Sep 12, 2007 at 12:05:16 pm
...and keep in mind, as per recent posts here, that RED does not have audio on-board at the moment. You'll need to shoot dual-system and transfer/sync audio in post.
Re: HDCAM or RED ? by chicagoshootr on Sep 12, 2007 at 1:53:49 pm
I think Leo hit the nail on the head.
There are many workflow issues involved with the Red camera right now that make it a questionable choice for many shops, depending on what kind of clients they have.
With most cameras, you create the look in the field. Bring it back and edit it. With the Red, every bit of footage needs to be graded and converted to something ready to edit...not to mention the audio issue mentioned above, which is an addtional expense. And what about about media management in the field and archiving material? Like they say, it's a camera that needs a crew, and crews cost money.
At he end of the day, I think the Red will end up costing as much or more than the HDX, HPX and HDcams and XDcams, once you factor in the addtional accessories, crew and post issues you'll need to deal with.
And unless you need to project 2-4K footage or do a film out, nobody really needs that much resolution right now...certainly not broadcasters and corporate customers.
Re: HDCAM or RED ? by Glaremedia on Sep 12, 2007 at 6:23:53 pm
The future does seem to be tapeless, even though tape works better than some give it credit for.
Workflows will change and file based workflow issues will be the new problems to deal with.
My worry with the RED camera is that it is too good !
At the end of the day we are a business and time is money, if the shooting slows down we might need say a 5 day shoot instead of the 4 day shoot with todays technology that extra time has to be charged to the client.
If we could shoot 1080 with a RED camera with the same efficiency as say HDCAM the RED would win hands down over the other cameras, then go 2K for jobs that have a bigger budget.
Re: HDCAM or RED ? by Phil Bates on Sep 12, 2007 at 10:59:14 pm
I check the Red forum several times a day and saw a great post today (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4458). I also talked with the poster who has been shooting with Red cameras 06 and 07 for a week and a half now. The work flow he is describing to yield 1080 from 4K sounds fairly easy, and he said that it should get simpler as they work on the efficiency of the process.
I agree with Leo that the decision may rest on the hassle of working with a film-like camera or the conveniece a run-and-gun ENG camera.
I THINK XDCAM... by tmvc on Sep 12, 2007 at 11:46:03 pm
i would go with xdcam hd - wait a while longer if you want the 2/3 inch version. easier media management in the long run. You can forego the deck there as well and just get a reader or plug straight from camera to a pc.
Re: I THINK XDCAM... by Glaremedia on Sep 13, 2007 at 11:13:39 am
XDCAM HD will not match HDCAM 790 even with the new 2/3 camera.
XDCAM does have attractions but i am not convinced it is the future
The new Panasonic 3000 with AVC intra looks a better bet instead of XDCAM HD 50Mb/s but i must admit RED is now difficult to ignore from a business point of view once it has been out in the field for 6months.
Re: I THINK XDCAM... by Tim Kolb on Sep 13, 2007 at 6:32:13 pm
[Glaremedia]"The new Panasonic 3000 with AVC intra looks a better bet instead of XDCAM HD 50Mb/s but i must admit RED is now difficult to ignore from a business point of view once it has been out in the field for 6months."
Just keep in mind that with the RED, there will be a step or step(s) in between ingest/transfer and editing for the time being that something like HDcam, XDcam, P2, or even soon AVC Intra won't have.
I still maintain that the RED will be a handful for shoots where EFP has proven ideal over the years. Episodic TV, High end commercials and narrative will be the camera's sweet spot I think...as others have said, the types of shoots where a full "film style" location crew is customary and budget-appropriate.
Re: I THINK XDCAM... by Edward G Downie on Sep 15, 2007 at 5:37:16 pm
I think all of these hd format Red 4k, HDcamSR, DVCproHD AVCintro XDCamHD and all the other are good and is getting to the point later than sooner.
HDCam SR is very expensive both to purchase and the cost of tape a good point about HDCam is it have shelve life which is cost of the tape you shoot the project on, and it is real HD (1920X1080). Tape still have some life left I don't know how long.
DVCProHD AVCHDIntro this is a very promising format at the moment the P2 cards are too expensive for any form of shelve life, until the HPX3000 they were using a scaler for real HD (1920X1080), I would go out on a limb by saying until Panasonic bring the cost down to around $200..00 Per 32GB for the P2 cards it will only be good for news.
XDCam HD a good format that is (highend HDV) Sony make this format sparkle and maybe the format for the small producers in the business. One of the greatest thing about this format is has the right medium for shelve life, the blue ray disk and it is not so expensive and I have seen footage shoot on HDCam and XDCam HD and I could not tell the difference and I am not a XDCam HD fan but when I look more in to the format it is the one for a guy like me.
Red and all the other hard drive camera especially Red I have never seen the camera I have download footage from the website and they are great looking. First the camera does not look like a video camera for comfortable shooting of documentary out in the field, I heard you have to record audio seperatelly with locking time code I also heard you have to take a SR1 which is HDCam (not dead) or a hard drive which if gets a big shock could lose all the footage (example I work in the theaters and we have some 4k Digital Projector the film file is shipped on fire wire drive and one in ten cannot mounted when they are receive we have to get new ones)I think if sd cards become larger and inexpensive they will fly and at the moment Red are good for film producer with small budget who wants the best but there is too much interest in Red for this camera not to make a impression hope it live up.
I think if you can afford HDCam buy it and you will not regret it if you chose XDCam HD good luck.
Re: HDCAM or RED ? by Vincent Becquiot on Sep 16, 2007 at 3:25:18 am
P2 isn't for everyone, or for live events ISOs, but it gets MUCH cheaper than HD tapes in a matter of weeks to a few months(I'm not talking about HDV on mini DV here...), and it is a near instant transfer to NLEs, VS capturing at 1X. I won't even get into reliability, I see no contest here.
BTW, if you are looking for a DVCPro HD tape recording, the cheapest units I know of is around $25000.00 right now ;-)
Re: HDCAM or RED ? by Craig Meadows on Sep 18, 2007 at 10:07:58 pm
In total agreement with Leo. REDs workflow is very much akin to shooting film. It's not a camera you quickly pull out of the bag, power on, white balance, focus and shoot. It's resolution is so high focus will be critical, more so than shooting HD. Having a focus puller on many shoots will be essential. In actuality I think film guys will intially better understand working this camera than ENG video guys. No built in ND filters, so you will need a glass set for a staged matte box. It has some nifty built in exposure tools but a light meter will still be a nice item to have, as will a measuring tape.
It's pricepoint puts it in an unusual postion where both film and video camps can afford it yet those with film working experience will initially have an edge in operation. As far as audio, it's just not enabled yet and will be a firmware upgrade via email. If you are a shooter that has to pull out a recorded tape/media to immediately hand over to a client it might be some time before many post houses your clients use have adopted a RED post work-flow.
WIth that said. Our facility comes more from a EFP background than film, though we have some film experience. In our market we still hand over good old SD analog beta sp as the broadcast deliverable. What on earth do we need a RED for you ask? Because finally, for our high-end clients who sometimes bring in out-side film, Varicam and HDCAM crews we can now offer equal or dare I say better quality. We've rented Varicams and various film cameras over the years when necessary. Now, with not much more investment than we spent a few years ago for a SDX900 we can offer amazing quality and resolution. We will still use our HD100 for the run-and-gun jobs but, for those wanting the best our RED will give us a very competitive edge and hopefully open some new client doors as well.
For us, simply put, adapting to the RED workflow and resolution/quality is worth its price in gold compared to the overall intial investment of the RED ONE.
