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Hyperdeck shuttle my views

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Neil AdamsonHyperdeck shuttle my views
by on May 28, 2012 at 7:09:31 pm

Hello

I recently bought the Hyperdeck shuttle to use as a field recorder for my Sony V1 camera - unfortunately whilst the conceptof the shuttleis good - itis a seriously limited device that really has a sole purpose of shooting short clips of uncompressed video in a studio for special post-production effects (e.g, compositing) other than that use it is going to be handicapped by a number of incomprehensible limitations:

The design and concept is really cool and I am enjoying using it where possible - however the recording space on the SSD disks is limited due to the large file sizes of video shot - even using the DNxHD codec I am not even getting an hour of recording on a 120 Gb drive.
SSD's are expensive so it is not economically viuable to carry 10 of these into the field - so tapes are more practical.

I ownder how feasible it would be for BM to release a patch that would allow for AVCHD (or similar) recording - even something a bit more compressed like HDV would allow for longer recording times on the SSD drives.

So currently unless you have a large number of SSD's the device is limited in a uncontrolled environment.
Even with a large number of SSD's transferring 120GB of data from each tape to an editing bay would be time consuming and edit drives will fill up very quickly.

Why SDI?
None of the cameras in the Hyperdeck promotional images on the BM website even come with SDI connectors - but a number of them would have firewire - what is wrong with firewire?

File system compatibility for Windows users - BM should license the Apple file system software convertor for Win7 from Media4 and package it with the product.
After spending $350 on the device it is just plain annoying to find out that you have to buy additional software for another $50 in orderto to make the device usable with Win7
This does not make for happy clients.
Especially since this 'feature' is not advertised on the box.

So how cost effective is this device - well...after buying the shuttle for $345 - you still need buy the SS disks (a single 120 Gb SSD goes for approx $150)
Then Windows users need the Win 7 file system software for another $50
FInally a 2.5" docking station is requird to transfer the files from the SSD's to the edit bay - preferably a USB 3 compatible docking station this is aother +$100

So suddenly the perceived cost benefits of the Hyperdeck shuttle are all negated and the buyer starts to think they would have been better served buying a Sony / Maxell field recorder instead as there are no hidden costs and the final price would have been better and the buyer would have a lot more recording capacity.

And lastly another $100 for the mounting plate - a flat piece of steel with a few holes drilled in it.

Surely BM is not that desperate for revenue that this has to be sold seperately?
Apparently they are.

So ...
The concept of the device is great and the potential value and possible use-cases could be endless - however BM have severly compromised the effectiveness of this product with (space hungry recording formats) and all the well hidden additional requirements and extra costs.

The overall experience leaves a slightly bitter taste in the mouth of the client as the usefulness of the device diminishes.

Unless the shuttle is aimed specificaly at users of larger more broadcast level camera's and specifically for studio use (green screen shoots) it is a fairly limited device and in hindsight not suited to many outside shoot environments nor is it a serious contender to more effective field recorders available.

I was a big fan of the BM product set - but this philosophy of all the addtional extras required just to get the product to work (especially for Windows users) means I am going to be a lot more wary of BM products and their inherent limitations going forward and will likely buy similar products from other vendors rather than from
BM.

Regards
Neil

Neil
Effective Video
http://www.effectivevideo.co.za


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Richard CrowleyRe: Hyperdeck shuttle my views
by on May 28, 2012 at 7:38:39 pm

Thank you very much, Mr. Adamson for your review. I was thinking many of the same things about those products. I had the same Mac/PC issues with my AJA KiPro recorder, but it offers much more manageable compression codecs, and provides an extremely handy variety of transcoding and conversion and connector input/output options.

And for single camera recording, I have found my Panasonic AG-HMR10, even at $1000 higher price to be more convenient and more economical to use. Now, if BMD offers some more "real-world" compression and codec options (as you suggest) it will be a very compelling product.

I fully expect the price of SSD to drop quite significantly as the price of semiconductor memory continues its historic $/GB decline, as well as SSDs slowly overtake rotating mechanical drives in everyday use. So the price of the media I believe is only an early-adopter issue.

I agree that BMD has a rather incomprehensible pricing philosophy. On one hand they make some amazing products with killer features (granted, not necessarily all available on first release), at remarkable prices. But OTOH, some of their products and accessories seem unbelievably overpriced by comparison. Almost like the big-ticket items are "loss-leaders" and they make it back selling accessories.


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Jef HueyRe: Hyperdeck shuttle my views
by on May 29, 2012 at 11:49:56 pm

Remember that the KiPro records ProRes (and now DNx). The original poster points out that the BMD device records DNx. As these two codecs are very similar, these devices have parity there.

Personally, I do not understand wanting an AVCHD codec on a device such as this. Almost all devices such as this - KiPro, Atmos, Sound Devices - are trying to solve the problem of good cameras with not so good codecs. If I want AVCHD, I imagine there are lots of pretty good cameras with that codec already. Not much of a market in my mind.

Just an opinion.

Jef


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Neil AdamsonRe: Hyperdeck shuttle my views
by on May 30, 2012 at 7:19:42 am

Hello

I understand the reason for thinking that a compressed codec is maybe not an absolute .
However one really strong use case in my environment is to avoid the use of tapes on a number of older tape based DV HDV cameras I have.

So although t agree the value or uncompressed and codecs like Dnxhd are of great value the option of a more compressed codec would add a lot more additional value especially for field recording

Regards
Neil

Neil
Effective Video
http://www.effectivevideo.co.za


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Tom BassfordRe: Hyperdeck shuttle my views
by on May 30, 2012 at 11:05:12 am

Hi

The Hyperdeck Shuttle is great for some users, but as ever with BMD stuff people see the low price tag and rush out to buy without thinking about the true costs.

The hyperdecks are designed for broadcast users and people looking to do heavy post (who need high bitrate source files to work from) OK so they are cheap, but they are very different products to the first generation of tapeless systems such as the Firestore.

FWIW I have a load of different tapeless systems for different purposes:-
Sony HDR60 which gets used with a V1 to avoid the annoyance of tapes.
Hyperdeck Shuttle - used with NX5 + EX1s where better quality is wanted
Atomos Ninja - used with NX5 / V1 + Vision Mixer - halfway house which provides both better quality and longer record times.
Hyperdeck Studio - used with vision mixers for convenience of form factor.

I'd very much like to see lower bit rate DNxHD or ProRes on the hyperdecks - this would really help when we do longer events where managing hours of high bitrate footage is expensive and tedious. I'd also really like to see better file handling and the RS422 bugs fixed so we can use the Hyperdeck Studio as a playback device for live events.

I'm hoping to get my hands on a Hyperdeck Pro to review when it is available. The prospect of being able to do a 4 camera ISO record on a single device is very appealing. Thinking about this it seems more than likely that the Hyperdeck Pro will have to be able to use a lower bit rate compression to be able to stream 4x HD onto an SSD. Maybe BMD will roll this out onto the existing Hyperdecks? Lets hope so, but as ever don't depend on BMD doing anything, look at the functionality of their products as-is and if you need a future update wait for its release until you purchase the device.

Cheers
Tom
http://ATEMuser.com


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Richard CrowleyRe: Hyperdeck shuttle my views
by on May 30, 2012 at 2:41:10 pm

"Personally, I do not understand wanting an AVCHD codec on a device such as this."

Yes, and apparently BMD doesn't understand it either. But BMD could sell thousands (perhaps 10s of thousands) more of these devices if they offered higher compression, and the support of timecode and closed-captioning for broadcast users (where it is required by law).

My local dealer recounted an exchange with the BMD people at a recent trade show where they seemed to have never considered that people are actively seeking replacement for the dead tape technology in these kinds of applications. The solid-state, no moving parts technology is so much less expensive to produce that they could really clean up the market as all those millions of tape machines die off.


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Tom BassfordRe: Hyperdeck shuttle my views
by on May 30, 2012 at 5:35:14 pm

They already do timecode.

I don't understand how you think closed captioning would be needed for an on camera recorder?

http://ATEMuser.com


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Neil AdamsonRe: Hyperdeck shuttle my views
by on May 30, 2012 at 7:54:17 pm

Hello

My understanding is that timecode is through the SDI connections and not through HDMI?

After reading the discussions - I do think BM are misrepresenting this product somewhat if they are aiming it specifically at broadcasters and not trying to position it as a replacement for tape based recording for lets say the middle market users.

As I said in my original post none of the cameras in the product marketing material even has an SDI connector so the advertising imagery is somewhat misleading.

Yes maybe we should read the small print - but even then this broadcast positoning is not really explicitly mentioned.

Anyway in terms of codecs - they have 2 options now - uncompressed and DNxHD 220 and I dont think these should be replaced but surely having more choices = more value = more buyers = more profits?

The main monetary annoyances are the requirements to buy software to allow Windows to handle OSX file systems, having to buy the mounting plate separately and the need for an HDD / SSD docking station.

Cheers
Neil

Neil
Effective Video
http://www.effectivevideo.co.za


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Shaun RoemichRe: Hyperdeck shuttle my views
by on May 30, 2012 at 8:13:47 pm

Having talked to some BMD folks at NAB, remember that licensing EACH CODEC, SPECIFICALLY EACH BITRATE, requires an additional fee to be paid which is then passed on to the consumer. I would love to see more bit rate options in ProRes personally on my 4 Hyperdeck Studios but the cost increase to do so might be a factor for me.

A $345 portable recorder capable of hdmi and HD-sdi input as well as real time cross conversion from/to hdmi and HD-sdi... Unfathomable!

Thrilled with my 4 HDStudios. Just need SSD prices to drop on the larger capacity drives AND a Thunderbolt external SATA dock to back these suckers up quickly...

Big Dog - Technical Director - Switcher
Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC Canada
roaddogmedia@gmail.com


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Shaun RoemichRe: Hyperdeck shuttle my views
by on May 30, 2012 at 8:18:31 pm

Oh and regarding using firewire as an input:

Firewire output on cameras is limited to 25mbps (the DV/hdv standard) so it is already heavily compressed, so much so that 1080I requires anamorphic pixels (1440 x 1080) to stay within bandwidth.

Not uncompressed like HD-sdi and hdmi.

Wrong solution.

The ONLY other viable input would be analog component, which is available on the Studio Pro HyperDeck.

Big Dog - Technical Director - Switcher
Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC Canada
roaddogmedia@gmail.com


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Tom BassfordRe: Hyperdeck shuttle my views
by on May 30, 2012 at 8:44:26 pm

Yes good points Shaun.

Personally I'd like to see maybe just one additional "low bitrate" option added for extended record times ideally this would be DNxHD 36 - giving over 10 hours on an affordable SSD drive, at a better quality than internal recording on the majority of affordable cameras. (ie better than XDCam EX)

Regarding the HFS+ format it is extremely annoying and something that should be dumped ASAP. exFAT is the way forward for these drives in the future as it is properly cross-platform and supports very large files.

In the meantime I totally recommend Transmac as an alternative to macdrive - it simply works a lot better.

I do find it kind of odd that people don't read the specs of things properly before they buy. If the Hyperdecks cost 5x the price they do then most of these complaints would simply not exist, as people would of really investigated before they buy and not expect any great compatibility with 8 year old HDV cameras from devices which would be seen as broadcast orientated!

Cheers
Tom

http://ATEMuser.com


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Richard CrowleyRe: Hyperdeck shuttle my views
by on May 30, 2012 at 9:35:57 pm

"I don't understand how you think closed captioning would be needed for an on camera recorder?"

But if they were in business to make a profit, why would they deliberately limit their horizon to only the "on-camera recorder" market? That's the part we don't understand. The introduction of the "studio" rack-mount version at least shows that they are thinking beyond "on-camera" use. But still not quite there when you can buy a whole case of tapes for the price of one hard drive that won't even hold 60 minutes.

And even if codec licenses added $100 to the price of each unit, it would still be a very attractive replacement for tape machines. And codec licenses are likely a tiny fraction of that amount.


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Shaun RoemichRe: Hyperdeck shuttle my views
by on May 30, 2012 at 9:41:09 pm

Richard: I talked with Joshua Helling at NAB at length about several things, not the least of which was implementing multiple data rates of ProRes on the HDStudio and he told me specifically that the licensing fee for each of the bitrates was "significant". So, I'm ASSUMING more than just a couple of dollars per unit.

Big Dog - Technical Director - Switcher
Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC Canada
roaddogmedia@gmail.com


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Shaun RoemichRe: Hyperdeck shuttle my views
by on May 30, 2012 at 10:51:55 pm

[Richard Crowley] "But still not quite there when you can buy a whole case of tapes for the price of one hard drive that won't even hold 60 minutes."

120GB SSD drives at my computer sales outlet (nearly wholesale) are about $100. MUCH more for 240GB and larger. That allows 1 hour of ProRes or DNxHD recording on my HDStudios.

A case (of ten I assume) of any tape that records anything higher than 25mbps (ie. something better than HDV so DVCProHD or HDCAM/HDCAM SR) would be SIGNIFICANTLY higher than $100...

Big Dog - Technical Director - Switcher
Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC Canada
roaddogmedia@gmail.com


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Richard CrowleyRe: Hyperdeck shuttle my views
by on May 30, 2012 at 11:05:58 pm

"even using the DNxHD codec I am not even getting an hour of recording on a 120 Gb drive." - Neil Adamson

"120GB SSD drives at my computer sales outlet (nearly wholesale) are about $100. That allows 1 hour of ProRes or DNxHD recording on my HDStudios." - Shaun Roemich

These statements appear to disagree. My impression was that there were only a few SSD which would perform properly in the BMD recorder products. And last time I checked, none of the recommended models are available at my (relatively well-stocked) local vendor. (http://www.euninc.com)


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Shaun RoemichRe: Hyperdeck shuttle my views
by on May 30, 2012 at 11:23:46 pm

I believe I get 119 minutes of DNxHD (I'm waiting to do my first long form ProRes recording) out of my 240GB OCZ Vertex 3 drives that I paid $300 each for. The 120GB are almost always on sale (see below) for JUST over $100CDN.

http://ncix.com/products/?sku=59354&vpn=VTX3%2D25SAT3%2D120G&manufacture=OC...

I HAVE heard some reports of dropped frames if drives are over 90% full but that hasn't been my experience... YET. I switch over with minutes to go.

Of course, your mileage can and will vary...

Big Dog - Technical Director - Switcher
Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC Canada
roaddogmedia@gmail.com


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Shaun RoemichRe: Hyperdeck shuttle my views
by on May 30, 2012 at 11:33:37 pm

10 pack of 1 hour DVCProHD tapes:

http://professionaltapesonline.webstorepowered.com/Panasonic-AJ-HP64ELG-Min...

Big Dog - Technical Director - Switcher
Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC Canada
roaddogmedia@gmail.com


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Jef HueyRe: Hyperdeck shuttle my views
by on May 31, 2012 at 12:23:52 am

DVC ProHD has a significantly higher compression rate than DNx 220. Plus it is anamoprihic. DNx is full raster.

Less money - less quality.

Jef


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Shaun RoemichRe: Hyperdeck shuttle my views
by on May 31, 2012 at 3:24:12 am

Exactly my point. Thank you.

Big Dog - Technical Director - Switcher
Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC Canada
roaddogmedia@gmail.com


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Rob ManningRe: Hyperdeck shuttle my views
by on Jun 6, 2012 at 8:00:13 am

Hi Folks,

Am I being confused?

This off of the HyperDeck 2 promo page:

"Compressed or Uncompressed

Now you have the freedom to work in both compressed and uncompressed video depending on the needs of your project! Uncompressed video will always produce the highest quality mathematically perfect results and is ideal when recording video for color correction, chroma keying and high end VFX work.

When you need longer recording duration or you're working with lots of video material, HyperDeck Shuttle 2 can be instantly changed over to use DNxHD MXF compressed video files.

The popular Avid DNxHD is a SMPTE standard codec that's used by thousands of broadcast and post production facilities worldwide as it maintains the highest 10-bit video quality with the advantage of smaller file sizes."

More to the point, and correct me if I'm wrong, isn't ProRes a long in the tooth codec somewhat a legacy of the MP2 flavor?

Just askin'.

Thanks,

Rob


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Rob ManningRe: Hyperdeck shuttle my views
by on Jun 6, 2012 at 8:13:46 am

Additional wake up and smell the silicon wafers: http://www.digitalrebellion.com/webapps/video_calc.html

This indicates that one hour of uncompressed 1080P will need 500.15 GB's...ummm...OK then, point absorbed.

The frame rate is 23.98, which would be the preferred output from the D800 or D4 bypassing the card capture.


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Neil AdamsonRe: Hyperdeck shuttle my views
by on Jun 6, 2012 at 12:14:17 pm

Hello

DNxHD 220 which the Hyperdeck shuttle records in is compressed but still at a very high bitrate so while it uses less space than the uncompressed option it is still very space hungry

The request is to allow an additional option (e.g. avchd) which provides lower quality recordings but uses way less disk space.

This would then give the Hyperdecdk shuttle user the best of all options:
Uncompressed - highest quallity - but very high disk utilisation,
DNxHD high quality high disk space and;
AVCHD - good quality lower disk space required

A range of optiopns would offer huge felxibility and expand the uses for the shuttle immeasurably

Prores is the Apple / FCP implemetation of a high quality HD codec - similar to Avids DNxHD.

Neil
Effective Video
http://www.effectivevideo.co.za


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Shaun RoemichRe: Hyperdeck shuttle my views
by on Jun 6, 2012 at 5:28:12 pm

The problem is DNxHD exhibits a gamma shift in certain Apple programs, such as FCP, so ProRes is still the preferred codec for apple users not editing in AVID.

Big Dog - Technical Director - Switcher
Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC Canada
roaddogmedia@gmail.com


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Neil AdamsonRe: Hyperdeck shuttle my views
by on Jun 16, 2012 at 7:33:57 pm

I see that BM has added ProRes to the Hyperdeck studio as a free software update -

Being an MC user on a PC I dont need Prores for the Hyperdeck shuttle but hopefully this means that additional codecs can be added to either the shuttle or the studio via a firmware update

Holding thumbs for more encoding optiopns on the shuttle

Neil
Effective Video
http://www.effectivevideo.co.za


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jaime valdiviaRe: Hyperdeck shuttle my views
by on Nov 29, 2012 at 9:41:05 pm

Hello
I am interested in buying Hyperdeck 2, my workflow is working with DNxHD codec but I am in doubt about the SSD I found this on the web

The Following 2.5 "SSDs Have Been Approved for 10-bit uncompressed video capture:

1. OCZ Vertex 3 240GB (VTX3-25SAT3-240G)
2. OCZ Vertex 3 480GB (VTX3-25SAT3-480G)
3. Crucial C300 256GB (CTFDDAC256MAG-1G1)
4. 512GB Crucial M4 (firmware 009) (CT512M4SSD2)
5. Kingston SSDNow V +100 64GB (SVP100S2/64G)
6. Kingston SSDNow V +100 128GB (SVP100S2/128G)
7. Kingston SSDNow V +200 240GB (SVP200S3/240G)
8. Kingston HyperX 240GB (SH100S3/240G)
9. Sandisk Extreme 480GB (SDSSDX-480G-G25)

Note: Many other drives will be Suitable for use, Especially if recording to DNxHD, but support will only be provided for approved SSDs.

The Following 2.5 "SSDs Have Been approved for compressed video capture:

Crucial M4 256GB (with firmware or above 000F) (CT256M4SSD2)
240GB OCZ Agility 3 (AGT3-25SAT3-240G)
Sandisk Extreme 120GB (SDSSDX-120G-G25)

I'm interested in the disc 9. Sandisk Extreme 480GB (SDSSDX-480G-G25) to be able to record with compression that I want is the DNxHD????

many Thanks


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Roger MartinRe: Hyperdeck shuttle my views
by on Mar 22, 2013 at 1:49:57 pm

HyperDeck Shuttle II now accepts exFAT formatted SSD disc.
I get one hour of Compressed Video using 99GB of space.
It imports directly into CyberLink Director 11 for 64bit Windows.


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