determining 24p vs 24p advanced footage
by clairemp
on
Feb 26, 2007 at 5:40:12 pm
Is there any way to tell if your footage was shot in 24p or 24p advanced mode?
I thought I knew my frame rate for certain tapes, but clips that I captured are showing up as needing rendering in places that I would not expect.
To note:
- I am editing in a 23.98 timeline
- I captured the 24p adv. footage using the 2:3:3:2 pulldown removal and set up a "test 23:98" sequence.
- I captured the standard 24p footage at DV-NTSC easy set-up, and once I have all of that captured, plan to use Cinema Tools to convert that footage for use on my 23.98 timeline. Warnings about not getting the full data stream were heeded! I set up a test 29.97 sequence.
Some clips are behaving badly, showing up as 29.97 although another clip on the same tape (24padv) came in at 23.98. Also a few clips need rendering on BOTH test sequences, making me think that perhaps something was altered in the middle of the 15-min segment I digitized (which would mean part of it needs to be rendered in each segment).
If there is a way that I can look at my footage, either in my DVX100a or in FCP and determine if it has a 2:3:3:2 cadence (pre-capture) or a 2:3:2:3 cadence, then I will be sure to not capture using the wrong setting.
Re: determining 24p vs 24p advanced footage by Dave LaRonde on Feb 26, 2007 at 6:59:52 pm
Pease don't try to capture more than one shot at a time or entire tapes at a time! Jeez! You can't do that!
When you capture and remove advanced pulldown in one step (which is the right way to do it), you have to capture INDIVIDUAL SHOTS.
Why? Because when you start & stop rolling the camera, it messes with the pulldown cadence. When using advanced pulldown capture, FCP defaults to capturing at 29.97 if it encounters any anomalies in the pulldown cadence -- that way, you can still remove the pulldown in Cinema Tools.
But doing it that way kind of defeats the purpose of capture with advanced pulldown removal, doesn't it?
The same principles above apply to normal 24p: you probably won't have a continuous pulldown cadence from shot to shot. So if you capture multiple takes as one clip, then attempt to remove the pulldown from that single clip, the chances are EXTREMELY GOOD that most of your footage will look lousy.
Do yourself a favor: do like the big boys do. Log your tapes before you capture so you know precisely what you want to capture. Capture individual shots only, making sure your in and out points lie within the shot. And if you want to be extra-special careful, set your in point for capture on the 0 or the 5 in the timecode. That way you allow FCP to align up on the A frame, and you're assured that FCP will remove pulldown as you capture, or Cinema tools will do a nice job of removing the pulldown.
Working any other way to remove the pulldown from 24p or 24pa footage invites disaster.
Re: determining 24p vs 24p advanced footage by clairemp on Feb 26, 2007 at 7:27:56 pm
Thanks for that Very Important Information, Dave
I had limited "capture now" to 15 minutes, knowing that I stood a better chance of running into trouble if I had longer clips.
I have done a ton of research about work flows and capture options, marinating myself in information from textbooks and forums like this one and the Apple Support forums.
Until your post, I have never read warnings about capturing large amounts of either 24p or 24p adv footage and am VERY grateful that you shared that info, which make sense as I think about the frame rate cadences and the possibility for error.
Bottom line, there is a lot of conflicting information out there, and most of my editor/filmmaker friends have told me to "just capture the whole tape," something I was not inclined to do since I on my previous film I logged every tape (100 hours) on VHS window dubs first, and frankly don't have the storage for capturing every inch of my footage.
I have also read input from "experts" ~ moderators of forums and textbook authors saying it's better (and easier on your tapes) to capture longer amounts and then go back and log/create subclips. It can be difficult to determine which is the best plan for me, my tapes, my computer, and the amount of storage I can afford.
I do greatly appreciate the information - although I didn't need the "big boys" comment to be honest. I am amazed that this information isn't out there on a more consistent basis!
Re: determining 24p vs 24p advanced footage by Dave LaRonde on Feb 26, 2007 at 8:09:32 pm
The next VERY GOOD step to take: get a DV deck. It will save wear & tear on your camera's tape transports. A DV deck's tape transports are far more robust, and can take the shuttling involved in capturing shots. They got 'em at B&H Photo & Video.
Another one: don't EVER, NEVER, EVER mix 24p and 24pa on the same tape. Not ever. You will NOT keep them straight as you capture footage, and you will lose your sanity sorting them out. What about adding 30P to the mix? Don't even think about it.
As to the "big boys" crack, bear in mind that we get TONS of high school kids with a DV camera, Premiere, After Effects and knowledge from the sales brochures, and they think they've got the world. About 3/4 of the way through their first project, they can't imagine why things are screwed up, and expect us to bail them out.
You're a very recent participant -- connect the dots and you'll see why you got the mini-lecture. My mistake.
Re: determining 24p vs 24p advanced footage by clairemp on Feb 26, 2007 at 8:17:56 pm
I really don't know where you are coming from, perhaps you misread my post?
I AM using a deck, a Sony DSR-20. Not sure why you automatically assumed I would not be using a deck.
I DON'T have 24p and 24p advanced footage on the same tape.
I have footage shot in both modes, on SEPARATE tapes.
I am not in high school, I am not a big boy or a small boy or actually a boy at all. I have had a film broadcast, won awards, and am trying to capture and log my footage using FCP - planning to work with a professional editor when the time comes.
Your condescension is unnecessary and frankly counter-productive.
Re: determining 24p vs 24p advanced footage by matt short on Feb 27, 2007 at 2:53:53 pm
clairemp,
I would recommend getting Noah Kadner's DVD. You can get it at www.callboxlive.com. Noah does a great job of clarifying all of this stuff. Its well worth the money.
matt
Re: determining 24p vs 24p advanced footage by Noah Kadner on Feb 28, 2007 at 8:41:30 am
Thanks Matt- yep it actually is a rather tricky thing to get your head around and we spend a bunch of time going over it on the DVD. You can figure out if footage is 24p or 24pA in two ways- one load a tape into your DVX and switch to VCR mode. Toggle the display button- it will display the shooting mode.
Or open a clip in FCP at 29.97. Step through frame by frame. 24pA has one interlaced frame every 5th frame. 24p has more. You need a monitor to see this clearly. I show how to do this on the DVD as well as a boatload of other stuff. Hope that helps. :)
