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Re: Editing scenario

COW Forums : Apple FCPX or Not: The Debate

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Jeremy GarchowRe: Editing scenario
by on May 21, 2012 at 4:40:44 pm

[David Lawrence] "I appreciate this post. I don't think I've ever addressed you as a 12-year old but for the record, I just want to be clear that I consider you among the most knowledgeable experts on this forum. I know you know what you're doing, what you're talking about, and I like that you back up your statements with evidence. That's a big reason why I enjoy debating with you. I apologize if my tone came across as being dismissive of your expertise. That was not my intent.

As I said earlier, I think we're looking at the issues in this thread with very different priorities.

I understand why file management is central to your team's workflow and why FCPX looks very compelling in that regard. Even though I don't have the same collaborative needs, I do experience the reconnection issues and appreciate how crucial a solution would be for a team dealing with them every day.

I've always thought FCPX got many things right with its event database and media organization design. It's true Premiere Pro still has work to do in this department. It's not a deal-breaker for me, but if it is for you, I understand."


Thanks, David. I appreciate the comments. I do enjoy these conversations as well. I think in the end, it will help make everything better, no matter what platform/NLE we end up choosing, as we have all said from the inception of this forum.

At this point, the Pr database is kind of a deal breaker. The great thing is that I know Adobe hears this, and I am sure they will do their best to fix what's currently not optimal. It's not only in reconnection, but it's also in project/timeline/bin sharing. While FCP7 isn't perfect in this regard, having the ability to have multiple projects open, and copy/paste between them was pretty essential to our workflow. With Pr you can import new project to your current project, but there's a lot of duplicity, and things tend to disappear if you delete them from the project mistakenly. So if you import a timeline via a project, it makes new master clips. If you delete those master clips from your project, the clips simply disappear from the timeline (they don't even go offline as everything in the timeline is directly represented by something in a Pr project). So if something mistakenly gets deleted, you will go to open a timeline and it will be empty.

Of course, if Pr is your choice, then you learn to live with this, and perhaps it doesn't seem like a big deal to you and your particular needs. For us, project sizes will swell, organization gets more confusing, and there's a lot more manual work that needs to be done just to keep track of the current work. As someone who receives offline projects and needs to finish them, this can make for some confusing moments when it comes time to finish as the rule will become, don't delete anything, but that means you will have multiple project level (not Finder level) copies of all the same media in your project when complete.

If you delete the extra media, it simply deletes out of your timeline with zero record of what was there or where it went. You have to be extremely careful and diligent. You do get a warning before you delete, see screen grab here:



deletemasterclips_pr.png

Of course, you can always Project Manage to a new Project with all "used" media if that's what needs to happen. There are workarounds, but they are workarounds.

And this is where preference of NLE comes in. Not one of these are perfect. You have to learn how and where they fall down so you can help pick them back up, or avoid that gap in the first place.

[David Lawrence] "My deal-breaker in FCPX has always been the timeline and everything associated with it.

I again brought up the bloat issue because the project database was given as the reason why PIOPs are somehow impossible. I've described how trivial the UI would be to implement within the existing model a couple times – It's easy and takes absolutely nothing away from what you already have with IOF. It only adds. I can't imagine why adding it would have any more impact on the project and event databases than adding any new feature."


I'm not sure if adding piops is "trivial". Hopefully, I will get sometime later today but I have a few instances where it's not very trivial, and can prove why it won't be necessarily easy. I tried to explain it in an earlier post, but the pictures will make more sense.

[David Lawrence] "If we're gonna bring up the project database, I think the bloat issue is crucial because it's obvious exactly what causes it and what is going on with the project database when it happens. I guess you can just avoid compound clips, but given how central they are to the FCPX editorial model, I'm actually pretty blown away that 1) this bloat behavior made it thru Q/A and 2) it's not higher on everyone's must fix list."

Well, there's a bunch of speculative reasons. Maybe it did make it through QA. If you make shorter, smaller compounds with just a few items, they perform OK. Sure, there's a little bloat and slow down, but on the whole they operate OK, and 10.0.4 (in my experience anyway) handles them better. There's always a trade off in releasing something that you know isn't quite right. I am sure Apple has heard the feedback. I don't know what level it's their "must-fix" list. Maybe they are fixing it, I don't think we have that information.

[David Lawrence] "Apologies for assuming it was one cut. Sometimes I need to remind myself to think, and then type."

I need to heed that advice as well, and tidy up my sometimes stream of consciousness ramblings in to a written format instead of "spoken" format. :)

[David Lawrence] "Actually, this number makes a lot more sense. If you still have the project and can count the cuts, I predict you'll see exactly twenty cuts. Each cut would be a full copy of the full data-size of the source compound."

I still haven't done the Apples to Apples. I plan to, though, as I would be curious if it exactly doubles.

[David Lawrence] "I guess I'm just surprised to see a bug this major and so obvious and easy to reproduce go completely unaddressed by Pro Apps for close to a year. It just really makes me wonder why. I've been involved with the software industry in various ways for over 25-years and frankly, I've never seen a commercial software product mishandle data this badly. Usually bugs like this set off fire alarms and get fixed asap.

Finally, I guess the "it's different, you don't really understand how it works" card doesn't strike me as a very strong debate argument. It's funny how often that point seems to come up whenever there's legitimate differences of opinion. I think it's entirely possible to understand exactly what's going on pretty quickly, and to make a well-reasoned design critique. PIOPs is just one area where in my opinion, there's an easy solution that would make everyone happy.

Last year, there was a lot of debate over no source viewer. Now, we learn that's coming in the next update. Why couldn't PIOPs be the same?

We all agree that FCPX is new, different, and will change as it grows. Just because it's different doesn't mean it can't benefit from successful tools and methods we've used for years.

As far as the bloat, I'd feel a lot more comfortable if Apple would simple acknowledge the issue and say they're working on it. I don't think that's asking too much of a professional software vendor."


But if you look hard enough, David, you will find weird bugs and inconsistencies in any software. It just so happens that FCPX is under the microscope at the moment, it is very new, and is not as mature as other offerings. When looking at it's release state, and the state that it's in now, they have done some remarkable programming in a very short time. I believe they will fix issues, but other's might not. That's OK. It's a choice and preference at this point.

I hope to post images later, and thanks for the response.

Jeremy


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