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HD Timeline, wants to render video on Edit to Tape - video already rendered

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Michael GarberHD Timeline, wants to render video on Edit to Tape - video already rendered
by on Sep 24, 2004 at 4:26:25 pm

Hi All,

Anyone encounter this one? Wants to render video on edit to tape. Video was rendered last night. There are no RT issues, so I'm particularly stumped.



Kona HD
Dual 2
Xserve Raid
10-bit material
FCP 4.5
brain too blury to think of anything else.


thanks,
Michael


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Luke MaslenRe: HD Timeline, wants to render video on Edit to Tape - video already rendered
by on Sep 24, 2004 at 6:15:03 pm

Hi Michael,

You say you are using 10-bit material so please ensure that you haven't accidentally added it to an 8-bit timeline. Assuming you are working with a 10-bit timeline which has been set up using one of the 10-bit Easy Setups installed by the Blackmagic Kona HD drivers, please check the "Effect Handling" settings and ensure that the effect handling for 10-bit is set to Blackmagic. If it is not set to Blackmagic, that would be why you are having to render.

Finally, please ensure that your project was configured by using a 10-bit Easy Setup. Manually configuring settings or manually selecting presets is a very common cause of weird problems.

Regards,

Luke Maslen
Blackmagic Design


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Michael GarberRe: HD Timeline, wants to render video on Edit to Tape - video already rendered
by on Sep 25, 2004 at 12:35:11 am

Hi Luke,

Yeah, everything is spot-on. Seems to be a bug with FCP or Kona. When there are tracks that are turned off (we had a textless master that we turned off all the text and re-rendered), the Edit to Tape wants to re-render those sections, even though they've already been rendered. Seems like a bug to me.

This also happens when you have clips that are turned off in the timeline. This is new to me, because I've done outputs before with video layers turned off, but it was in DV.


-Michael


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Luke MaslenRe: HD Timeline, wants to render video on Edit to Tape - video already rendered
by on Sep 25, 2004 at 5:56:13 am

Hi Michael,

I'll ask the engineers on Monday if they have any suggestions. Meanwhile, can you try creating a new project and see if the problem still occurs or if it only occurs with the existing project? It is possible there is something wrong with the current project file. Just for good measure, it would also be a good idea to repair disk permissions on your startup disk although I doubt that would explain your current problems but it is nice to eliminate it as a possibility. I'll let you know when I have spoken with the engineers and hopefully they might have some ideas.

Regards,

Luke Maslen
Blackmagic Design


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JaredRe: HD Timeline, wants to render video on Edit to Tape - video already rendered
by on Sep 25, 2004 at 5:11:05 pm

I have had this same issue with the Kona SD in 8 & 10 bit projects. Funny thing is I had the same problem when I made a textless version as well. I was never able to find out exactly what video FCP was writing on edit to tape, and every things was rendered before.

Jared
Idea Spring Editing, Inc.
Denver Final Cut Pro UG


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Michael GarberRe: HD Timeline, wants to render video on Edit to Tape - video already rendered
by on Sep 25, 2004 at 6:46:46 pm

Hi Luke-

Thanks for checking in to this. Yesterday, I had already copied the sequence into a new project when I wrote the first message. So, it was clearly something within the sequence or media.

Here is what helped the video re-render issue (but not completely fix it). First step, I deleted all the turned off video layers and any video that was "hidden" or "turned off." This alone did not fix the re-render issue. Next, I copied and pasted all the video in to the _same_ timeline. This got the render time down to few minutes, which I could deal with. The weird thing was that when I copied and pasted in the same timeline, I'd have to re-render some clips.

As a side-note, about 10 or 15 nested sequences lived in the main sequence. Another weird thing was that I had to render to RGB because of a lot of graphics that came out of After Effects. Every clip in the show had at least one 3-Way Color Correction on it as well as a Broadcast Safe filter set to Extremely Conservative.

I noticed issues as well with nested sequences. If there were changes made within a nested sequence, those changes would not be recognized on the main timeline until I did something to change the values to nested sequence - ie, change the opacity to 0 and then back to 100 to kind of "jog its memory."

I should also mention that there are some weird bugs with FCP and doing an insert edit when you have a lot of audio tracks. Luckily I'd encountered this problem with the Kona SD before, so I saw the problem when I was doing a preview. The problem is that it will drop frames on inserting and then cause issues with the control track - so you're kind of screwed. The solution: delete all the audio (hopefully you're not doing an audio insert). Secondary solution: export a stereo version of your audio and re-import it.

Generally speaking you should probably always export a stereo version of your audio just to make life easier on the system, not to mention reliability, but you don't always have the time _or patience_ after a full week of onlining! :)

So that's the scoop. I finally got the textless version out after 2 hours of dealing with this problem. But at least I got it out!

Thanks again,
Michael


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Luke MaslenRe: HD Timeline, wants to render video on Edit to Tape - video already rendered
by on Sep 27, 2004 at 5:51:03 am

Hi Michael,

Thanks for your additional information and I'm glad you managed to deal with the problem one way or another. The engineers mentioned a couple of possibilities to me.

The first was to go in to the Edit to Tape window and click on Mastering Settings. There are various options for the Leader Element and each one of these is likely to add some rendering time before Edit to Tape will proceed. If you made a note of the time taken for the render to occur, compare that time with the total number of seconds taken by the enabled options in this dialog box. If they appear to be similar, then this might be the source of your rendering.

Another possibility is that it was the audio, rather than the video, which was causing the render. If you were outputting 8 tracks of audio to a 4 track deck, then I believe Final Cut Pro might try to do something about this and this might be a cause of your problem.

Hopefully one of these ideas might explain the problem both you and Jared have seen.

Regards,

Luke Maslen
Blackmagic Design


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Michael GarberRe: HD Timeline, wants to render video on Edit to Tape - video already rendered
by on Sep 27, 2004 at 5:59:16 am

Hi Luke-

The problem definitely had something to do with the timeline. I never use any of the additional settings in the Edit to Tape. Always best to use the timeline. Prior experience has shown me that using these options causes frame inacuracy.

I did a "render all" on the audio before I laid off. So, it shouldn't have caused any audio renders. Plus, the bar specifically said "rendering video." Never any audio. Also, the fact that the render times shifted dramatically downward when I deleted the hidden video elements and turned off video layers points to it being an issue with video.

For example, the first time it occured I had a line cut quicktime movie (DV codec) on video layer 10. The video layer was turned off, as I was using it to double check my online. I decided not to delete it *just in case*. Once I was ready to output, I noticed it wanted to re-render the whole darned timeline. Said it would take approx 6 hours.

Once I deleted this video layer and copied and pasted the video back on to the timeline, the render time went down to minutes.

That's about all the info I can give. If you guys figure it out, give me a hollar.


Thanks,
Michael


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Patrick InhoferRe: HD Timeline, wants to render video on Edit to Tape - video already rendered
by on Sep 27, 2004 at 10:09:10 pm

[Michael Garber] "The problem definitely had something to do with the timeline. "

The issues you are describing are FCP HD issues.

Did the nested sequences also have clips turned off?

In my experience what you are describing can be attributed 100% to clips that are off. If the nested sequences also had 'dormant' clips - that would explain why you still had to re-render.

I too have found that making changes to nested clips isn't usually noticed by the higher level timeline. I control-B the clip twice to break the render.

You might want to visit:
http://www.apple.com/feedback/finalcutpro.html

Log these as bugs.

We can only hope that the more people report them the more likely they'll be given higher priorities.


--
Patrick Inhofer
editor, compositor, nice guy
applePi Editorial, nyc


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Luke MaslenRe: HD Timeline, wants to render video on Edit to Tape - video already rendered
by on Sep 28, 2004 at 12:28:45 am

Hi Patrick,

Thanks for your very useful information. I'll keep an eye out for that in future.

Regards,

Luke Maslen
Blackmagic Design


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Luke MaslenRe: HD Timeline, wants to render video on Edit to Tape - video already rendered
by on Sep 28, 2004 at 12:30:32 am

Hi Michael,

Thank you for your additional information and Patrick seems to have the answer to your problem and that should help in future.

Regards,

Luke Maslen
Blackmagic Design


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Filip Vandoorneconfirmation : wants to render video on Edit to Tape - video already rendered
by on Sep 28, 2004 at 7:27:38 am

i can confirm this 'rerender when edit-to-tape when videoclips are disabled of videotracks are off' bug of FCP.
also when doing insert edits, keep you in and out points away from audiotransitions


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Patrick InhoferRe: confirmation : wants to render video on Edit to Tape - video already rendered
by on Sep 28, 2004 at 12:01:48 pm

[Filip Vandoorne] "also when doing insert edits, keep you in and out points away from audiotransitions"

Also...

If a clip has a transition applied to it and has been turned off with the clip, you need to make sure the transition is also highlighted when turning on or deleting that clip. I've gone through timelines to clean them up, missing a transition here and a transition there and wondered why I was still rendering video during Edit to Tape.

Very annoying.

--
Patrick Inhofer
editor, compositor, nice guy
applePi Editorial, nyc


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