Will Kona ever be TRUE 24fps???

Hi,

There are some serious down sides to 24.0 fps, and this is why we did 23.976 fps. 23.976 is the same frame rate the telecine runs when doing NTSC transfers, and this works fine, and has been used for decades. 24 fps is not the only way to do film editing, and Cinema Tools supports 23.976 fps without any problems.

In fact the Kona SD is the only card that supports Cinema Tools, because they are both OS X native.

Why do you ask about 24 fps?


Regards,

Grant Petty
Blackmagic Design
http://www.blackmagic-design.com

Hi,

Yes, in PAL the telecine runs at 24.0 fps, as the 25 fps PAL frame rate is a nice whole number.

In reality though, the telecines actually run at 25 fps. They just speed everything up, and it looks really nice. Everything you watch in PAL on any video based format is actually sped up to 25 fps if originated in film. It's rare a telecine is run at 24 fps in PAL.

Some clients insist on 24 fps when doing film jobs in PAL, but most of the time I have seen this it's kind of the low budget stuff, where the client freaks out about everything, because they lack knowledge.

What is quite common in PAL film editing is to telecine at 25 fps, and then use a slow down in the non liner editor to play back at 24. It's not really required, and most people I know just edit at 25, as it's going to be sped back up again when the finished movie is transferred back to video. The Avid and Aurora Film option can do the 25 PAL playback at 24 I believe.

We don't do it, as the market is not that big, so we have put it down the list a bit. If enough people ask for it we might, under OS X it's hard to do, and not as nice to use.

That's the great thing about PAL, as the film runs at 25 fps, so you get nice progressive video, with no field movement, so it's easy to do effects and design. This is the main reason we added 23.976 support in the Kona SD. Now the NTSC guys can get rid of the pulldown, and do design, effects and streaming with progressive video. This much easer to use. Combined with 10 bit uncompressed, it's nice.

Regards,

Grant Petty
Blackmagic Design
http://www.blackmagic-design.com

[Tim Beaton] "On a related note, I take it this is why there is quite a good deal of PAL shooting going on in the US, because the PAL standard is closer to film, and looks a bit more "filmic" than NTSC, not to mention the greater resolution and better colour accuracy. "

I've known people to shoot like this too, and too be honest, I don't know if I'm sold on the idea. I mean, you're still shooting with interlaced footage, so there goes the whole progressive frame concept. It's not a 3:2 pulldown, which IMO is what makes it look cool. The color accuracy is the same on Betacam SP or higher. DV 4:1:1 vs. 4:2:0 is debatable I guess.

Hmmm. I see people's point, but I think I'd still rather shoot at 29.97 if given the choice. If working in a 23.976 timeline, I can use the 29.97 FPS footage to conform the frames to 23.976, which is essentially an overcranking process so the footage is naturally slowed down (29.97 is 125% faster than 23.976). Interpolate the fields to frames and you're good to go. I've done this with a lot of 29.97 footage for 24p and it looks really nice and smooth. You just can't have people talking or it slows it down!

Can we just get the DVX-100 out to the masses already so people can shoot progressive 24p DV for cheap??? Please?!!!

Marco Solorio  |  OneRiver Media

I work for a studio and they want to edit with FCP in 24fps for an HD project. The offline will be done by FCP using beta dubs, and then will be giving the onliners a 24fps EDL to cut from the HD Masters. I read the posts you and the Aurora guy had back and forth on 2-pop and I understand where you are coming from but in certain situations it is better to cut in TRUE 24fps.


Paul

Hi,

Normally in NTSC countries it's better to shoot at 23.976 in HD, because this can be up converted to 29.97 HD for broadcast, and can be down converted to 29.97 NTSC for standard definition. It's not right to shoot at 24 fps HD in an NTSC country, and you should try and get the crew to do the shoot at 23.976.

There are many problems with trying to make 24 fps work in a NTSC based HD world. This is why there is a 23.976 fps frame rate in the HD standards. These problems include problems in the HD to SD down conversion, mastering to 1080i/29.97 for broadcast etc.

There was a article in Mix magazine about the production of Star Wars Episode II that touched on this issue.  There were a number of surprising revelations not the least of which was the fact that Lucas opted to shoot the entire picture in 23.976 even though it was destined to be a film/theatrical release. 

http://mixonline.com/ar/audio_star_wars_episode_2/index.htm

Wood decided from the start that he wanted to do the whole show in 24-bit, including the dialog and sound effects units. (Episode I was mixed from 16-bit sources, except for the music.) This raised many issues, based mainly on the fact that Avids do not support 24-bit audio and that they would be shooting at the 23.98 frames per second rate. (The 23.98 rate allows for all of production and post-production to occur on the same "timebase") In addition, Wood investigated file formats (Broadcast .WAV, .AIFF or Sound Designer II), the handling of file metadata and how to import the data into Pro Tools.

So you can see there are real benefits to doing the shoot in a way that's compatible with all the other equipment used in post production.

Of course we don't live in a perfect world, and if the film crew that is doing the shoot insist on 24 fps, then there is not much that can be done about that.

You would know as well as I do, that in post production a lot of money is made when clients don't do things right, as you can bill time fixing it. This has made it hard to teach clients to use new workflow methods because it's not in anyones interest to help them spend less time in post.

It's a problem, but things to change over time. These guys do start to realize that with changes in workflow, things suddenly get a whole lot easer. As a company we can design features to help people do things the old way, or spend our development resources on new features like more RT etc.

As more crews get experience with HD shoot's, and the post production process, they will learn the tricks to make the whole post process a lot easer, but it takes time.

I have noticed you have post this question on a number of forums, and I am not sure why, as it must have been a question only we could answer. Also, I cannot tell what company you work for from your post. If we know what company you work for, we can ask a dealer near you to demo a system for you. This would let you try your workflow method, and discuss the job.

What company do you work for? We can arrange something. I will reply on your posts on the other forums to come over here to the cow to see the thread, as this is a lot easer than posting the same stuff on more than one forum.


Regards,

Grant Petty
Blackmagic Design
http://www.blackmagic-design.com

Hi all

Here's my question regarding all this (standing by for rolling of the Petty eyes)

Is there a way, if shooting for a film finish (ie 24fps) - transfer to HD at 24fps, downconvert to PAL SD, cut in SD at true 24fps and then simply batch back in HD as an online?

The idea being to then output to HD and scan back to 35mm without having to go through an EDL in the middle (thereby losing half your FX work in the process) Are we talking reverse telecine 25fps-24fps?

Seems to me, if we could simply stay in 24fps from shoot to print we'd save a lot of arjy barjy. It would certainly simplify film aquisition/HD post/projected print (the ideal for feature production IMHO)

Cheers
Shane Betts

Thanks for the reply Grant. It's so cool that you and Ted are on here discussing users' needs before issues arise.

I feel that the major strength of FCP is the ability for the system to grow with it's owner's needs. And the way you're building Kona you are keying into this perfectly.

There is an enormous user base out there of young film makers with DV cameras, making drama. These people all have their eye on feature film careers and that means that, one day, many of them are going to be shooting on 35mm.

In keeping with the spirit of growing with the user, I feel that film support is essential so that, as these users grow, they grow with Kona. There are obviously different opinions about HD vs 35mm in aquisition, post and distribution but, while film remains in the loop somewhere I think we have to deal with it.

Having said all that - Kona HD offline is obviously the go here. Now if only Sony would release a HDCam J-Deck...

Cheers
Shane Betts

Dear Grant,
How much pressure will it take to get us filmmakers from PAL areas onto the Kona for 24fps film cutting with Cinema Tools?
I am from Mumbai,and we are currently testing the KonaSD card.
This is definately an incredible achievement for the price,and we (makers/techies/soundos)were deeply impressed by your version2 download,which I think most companies would have charged a hefty amount from the users.
The discussion about 24fps manifest on these and other less polite boards is somewhat disheartening,however.It is clear that a sound(!) case can be made out for it,particularly by people hoping to integrate a KonaSD with film cutting and audio mastering/mixing within the same setup,which I think is the "convergences of need and desire" philosophy that your own product holds out.
As an early adopter,one faced ridicule from the mainstream(which is where I am stuck!)when one evangelised FCP here,and here at last is a product that completes the message.....
barring 24fps PAL film option.The acrimony and subsequent defensiveness on this feature is something I assure you many,many potential customers in PAL countries are watching closely.

[Grant Petty] "So this feature was really important for the NTSC guys, but in PAL we only use this feature for film editing. Telecine in PAL is done at 25 fps. The PAL guys have always had it easy! "

In PAL land here's how easy it is...
1. Shoot at 24 fps
2. TC at 25 fps. Means film runs 25 fps, so does Beta.
3. Capture at 25 fps
4. Capture sound from DAT or Nagra.
5. Put them together, they won't sync.

So that's where the Avid Film Composer comes in. This proportionately speeds up sound at capture, to make it sync with the Beta TC.
It also plays the timeline at 24 fps all the time so you have an accurate idea of length.
It does this with a Quadra 950 (50 MHz I think) and 56 MB RAM. And it could do this in 1993 AD.

Now how hard would it be to make the Kona do this ?


With FCP we do all the steps 1-4 above.
Then open captured clips in FilmLogic or Cinema Tools and "Conform" them to 24 fps. This is instanteneous and needs no rendering. It also makes the clips appear as 24fps clips to FCP. These play in a 24 fps timeline as 24 fps.
But only through Firewire or a Cinewave or Aurora card. RT Mac won't do.

Of course the clips pay back a little jerkily on TV set.

Neil

[Grant Petty] "We will get to it when we can, but stability first! "

Which is why the Kona SD is so stable in the first place. These guys are SERIOUS about keeping things rock solid. And thankfully so. I always heard rumors about Kona SD being stable, but until I actually used it myself, I then understood what stability really meant!

Steady as she goes, matie!

Marco Solorio  |  OneRiver Media

[tipu] "My predicament now is ,will I have to get a card that supports 24fps PAL to work effectively with Cinema Tools.That would be too cruel! "


Until Kona gets to play a 24 fps timeline, you can continue to play a 24 fps timeline populated with CinemaTools conformed 24 fps clips out thru Firewire. That works. No need to get an extra card. In any case which card can you get that will sit in your system and not clash with Kona ?

24 fps plays out fine thru a camcorder or a DV-analog convertor like the Canopus ADVC 100.


Neil

I'm in Mumbai too.