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Panasonic 720 60p on Cinewave

COW Forums : Pinnacle CineWave

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Tim MPanasonic 720 60p on Cinewave
by on Jun 30, 2003 at 8:15:55 pm

Hello all,

I am incredibly impressed by the march forward of FCP and Cinewave.

We are about to install FCP 4 as we recieve our Cinewave 4.0 drivers this week at the SMPTE conference in Sydney.

Looking forward is there room in the architecture of both Cinewave and FCP to support 720 60p HD material shot on the
Panasonic Varicam at variable frame rates. Will the G5's help??

At present this support is available in Quantel iQ/eQ. The IQ ingests the material straight off the Camera removing the need for an intermediary VTR.

The fact that this feature is available on a system priced at A$650.000 probably means its slated for release soon on Cinewave/FCP!!

Any forward knowledge??


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Justin AllenRe: Panasonic 720 60p on Cinewave
by on Jun 30, 2003 at 11:17:50 pm

CineWave has always been able to do 720p footage. The G5's will not do anything different in that regard. If you're talking about some timecode issues, that lies within FCP itself. And the way panasonic delivers that timecode.

A great workaround for that problem is to use CineAquire. It has rock-solid timecde sync for 720p footage.



Justin Allen
President & CEO
Katana Interactive
http://www.katanainteractive.com


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Tim MaloneyRe: Panasonic 720 60p on Cinewave
by on Jul 1, 2003 at 1:15:55 am

Thanks Justin,

Understanding the 720 60p support explained above. Are you saying the recognition of flagged footage from the Varicam say at either 6 frames or 60 frames used for picture creativity ( away from the 24.97p, 24p 25p 29.97p and 30p for post outcome compliance reasons ) is an Apple issue alone?

I am trying to weigh up whether there is a future in upgrading my Cinewave to HD with a view to being able to ingest Varicam Material without a VTR!!

Does any one think Apple will recognise the Varicam and its overcrank/undercrank capabilities??

Here's hoping

Tim









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Justin AllenRe: Panasonic 720 60p on Cinewave
by on Jul 1, 2003 at 2:02:18 am

Tim,

I probally misunderstood your question. If you're talking about the flagged frame issue, then that's a Panasonic feature. If you're going to shoot at 59.94 then no problem. FCP and CineWave HD can handle this. However, if you are going to shoot at 24 or 23.97, then you need a converter. I use the Teranex for this. In my opinion, it's the best in the business.

Now then, if you want to go to another frame rate OTHER than the above mentioned, then you need to purchase the Frame Rate Converter (FRC) from Panasonic. This will allow you to handle the undercrank and overcrank features of the VariCam.

And as to the issue of just using the camera as a deck, I would advise against it. Yes, it's extra money, however the camera costs more than the deck. And the camera will wear out faster than the deck would.

Hope that this helps.



Justin Allen
President & CEO
Katana Interactive
http://www.katanainteractive.com


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Sean C. CunninghamRe: Panasonic 720 60p on Cinewave
by on Jul 2, 2003 at 10:27:05 am

Justin, will FCP4 + CW4 negate some of the need for a framerate converter when dealing with flagged footage? Or possibly with the addition of CinemaTools (which you need for the new-style 3:2 pulldown employed by the Panasonic 24P DV camera)?

We're thinking of shooting our next project Varicam rather than CineAlta but the current 720P + Cinewave = massive disk waste equation has us thinking maybe we'll just use the Varicam for overcrank or greenscreen work.

I'm still working on my scripts to go from flagged 24fps Varicam footage to actual 24fps for digital effects but we're not going back out 720P but blowing up and dropping it into an edit with CineAlta footage (used a Varicam for some pick-up shots). It only now occured to me that anyone going back out to a Panasonic deck might have problems getting this method to work if the controls aren't in place to tell FCP or AfterEffects that you want it to be flagged as 24P...hmmm.

Anyway, no converter is what I think of as "improved" handling of 720P. The Pinnacle and Apple literature on the upgrades seems to imply that this might be expected but that could just be wishful thinking on my part. And even if it were "just" adding deck control that would certainly qualify as "improved". I was going to ask at the FCP UG meeting this week but couldn't make it.



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Rune HansenRe: Panasonic 720 60p on Cinewave
by on Jul 2, 2003 at 4:58:13 pm

[ Sean C. Cunningham ] Anyway, no converter is what I think of as "improved" handling of 720P. The Pinnacle and Apple literature on the upgrades seems to imply that this might be expected but that could just be wishful thinking on my part. And even if it were "just" adding deck control that would certainly qualify as "improved". I was going to ask at the FCP UG meeting this week but couldn't make it.

Apple/Panasonic are working on DVCPro HD/100 natively over FireWire. That's a lot more than just 'improved' handling.

However, going 1080p24 (via the FRC) is not wasting space at all, and it works gloriously. No timecode problems. As for deck control on 720p60, CineAcquire does this even if FCP doesn't. I too think it's weird that FCP doesn't support 720p60 better. Strange stuff.

--rune


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Sean C. CunninghamRe: Panasonic 720 60p on Cinewave
by on Jul 2, 2003 at 5:56:47 pm

I know Panasonic has been talking about 720P over Firewire since two NABs back. It makes sense, I mean, it's a 100Mbit stream so why not. Capture via FW, keep the footage native as long as you can, then render to a high-speed array when you apply color correction or otherwise transform the footage. The way people have to deal with it right now is beyond kludgy. It's nice that they at least realize this and are working towards a solution.


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Bart HarrisonRe: Panasonic 720 60p on Cinewave
by on Jul 2, 2003 at 9:15:28 pm

Sean,

Many of us expected to see just such a thing at this year's NAB. Insider discussion has suggested a business riff might of come up between Panasonic and Apple last year which caused a temporary slowdown. I'm wondering who has to pay whom for Apple to use the DVCPRO-HD codec in their systems. I also suspect this won't be something really viable until Panther and the G5 start to fill up the channel.

I do expect to see it happen, though, certainly by NAB next year. Let's also hope Sony get's down off their high-horse and allows someone besides the "big iron" guys to use their precious HDCAM codec. I, for-one, certainly feel the pain decompressing that data just to store it in five times the amount disk space that really should be needed !

Bart

P.S. Hope ya don't mind all the joking over on the HugeSystems forum. I certainly agree with you that colorspace compression is a form of compression. Unfortunatley not a lot of people really understand what we're talking about. Thanks for the spirited discussion !!

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Build `em right... support `em well... let our customers do the talking !"

Bart Harrison
Multimedia Programming America
The HD Suite

America's VAR
Apple, Shake, CineWave, Kona, & Rorke SAN
http://www.mpa.net


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Sean C. CunninghamRe: Panasonic 720 60p on Cinewave
by on Jul 3, 2003 at 1:01:46 am

Well I hope the Panasonic and Apple marriage really gives us what could be really, really cool. Imagine being able to plug a Varicam straight into a PowerBook or iMac and go straight into editing HD.

For cuts-only you'd never need to look at anything like a Cinewave, KONA or HD-Fury. And most of the indie HD production out there is little more than cuts-only where they can, at best, afford a "best case" color correction that's usually applied tape-to-tape anyhow.

I want to do more research online but in looking up facts for the rant over on the Huge page I saw more than one reference to HDCAM being a 134 or 135Mbit stream, natively. If that's true...holy cow, we've all been so mislead and all this stuff costs waaaaaay too much for data that could also be read in through a 1394 port.

On the drive back from Huge today my bro and I were talking and perhaps it's not so surprising what JVC is able to do for so little money with their consumer HD camera...perhaps it's more surprising just how much the other guys AREN'T doing for the order of magnitude more money they, and the infrastructure they require, cost us.

Hah-hah, naw, I don't mind the joking over there. And the Huge guys got a kick out of it too. We laughed a bit about it while I watched Alan birth our new Dual-Max. Now I've got to go set it up, restore what the ghost of Quantum's past killed Sunday afternoon and get our new trailer out!


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neutronstarRe: Panasonic 720 60p on Cinewave
by on Jul 1, 2003 at 4:06:07 pm

great info! thanks Tim and Justin.
Yeah, I heard the same thing that iQ and also Piranha do currently support Panasonic Varicam at variable frame rates, but unfortunately CineWave doesnot (I mean the recognition of flagged footage thing). I strongly hope Apple and Pinnacle work together and support this undercrank and overcrank features of the VariCam.



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Rune HansenRe: Panasonic 720 60p on Cinewave
by on Jul 1, 2003 at 6:29:40 pm

[ neutronstar ] Yeah, I heard the same thing that iQ and also Piranha do currently support Panasonic Varicam at variable frame rates, but unfortunately CineWave doesnot (I mean the recognition of flagged footage thing). I strongly hope Apple and Pinnacle work together and support this undercrank and overcrank features of the Varicam

Apple and Panasonic are working closely together in fixing this. It will happen -- I have this confirmed from Jan Crittenden at Panasonic, and it will eventually also work over FireWire.

No estimated time of arrival, though...

--rune


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deadheadRe: Panasonic 720 60p on Cinewave
by on Jul 1, 2003 at 7:40:57 pm

I have edited several HD spots shot on varicam. Only one had an overcranked shot. I just slowed it down and it rendered fine, so I think in the meantime (at least with overcranked shots) it will work well.


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Bart HarrisonRe: Panasonic 720 60p on Cinewave
by on Jul 1, 2003 at 7:52:49 pm

[deadhead] "Only one had an overcranked shot. I just slowed it down and it rendered fine"

If it was overcranked at 60 in a 24 pull-down environment I should think the slomo would look really nice. After all there would 60 progressive frames each second for FCP to work with.

Bart

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Build `em right... support `em well... let our customers do the talking !"

Bart Harrison
Multimedia Programming America
The HD Suite

America's VAR
Apple, Shake, CineWave, Kona, & Rorke SAN
http://www.mpa.net


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Rune HansenRe: Panasonic 720 60p on Cinewave
by on Jul 1, 2003 at 8:52:51 pm

[ Bart Harrison ] If it was overcranked at 60 in a 24 pull-down environment I should think the slomo would look really nice. After all there would 60 progressive frames each second for FCP to work with.

Yeah it looks beautiful.

The problem occurs once it's 50 frames per second, meaning you don't have a fluid 1:1 relationship between recorded frames and "real" frames. You'd get repeated frames at irregular intervals, which is awful.

The Panasonic FRC is an excellent and economic way of doing this, plus it upconverts the 720p to 1080p24 at the same time, and does a nice job of it.

--rune


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Tim MaloneyRe: Panasonic 720 60p on Cinewave
by on Jul 1, 2003 at 11:11:06 pm

( Apple and Panasonic are working closely together in fixing this. It will happen -- I have this confirmed from Jan Crittenden at Panasonic, and it will eventually also work over FireWire )

Great chat guys just what I wanted to hear. Will try to get info out of Panasonic and Apple at Sydney SMPTE.

With the cancellation of the Broadcast Asia show in Singapore. A lot of execs will be there.

I will report!!

Tim



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Kevin LangRe: Panasonic 720 60p on Cinewave
by on Jul 3, 2003 at 2:21:00 am

I am having a hard time believing that panasonic would give over its secret variframe code for FCP a $1000 program and lose out on its big ticket item the $21000 FRC. I for one got tired of waiting for some one to make this process economical and bought it so I could put the "Vari" in my Varicam. I guess what I am really trying to say is I would be deeply saddend by some one coming out with a cheaper way after I spent all that money!
Thanks
Kevin


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