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XRaid/Cinewave

COW Forums : Pinnacle CineWave

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cawanXRaid/Cinewave
by on Feb 20, 2003 at 1:28:43 am

Just wanted to let everyone know that we just received a XRaid from Apple and started testing with CineWave. The system is working great off the XRaid using the supplied copper cables. The data rates are the highest that I ever recorded using the cinewave testing utility. We will continue to test and report our findings.

Cawan Starks
ProMax Systems
SD/HD Specialist


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Justin AllenRe: XRaid/Cinewave
by on Feb 20, 2003 at 4:07:17 am

I also wanted to add my 2 cents as well. The interesting about this XRaid at the conference is that it's running HD at a raid level 5 (or really 50).

The difference between raid 0, which is what most of us are using and raid level 5 is the redundancy factor. In level 0 the data is spread accross all drives evenly, which means that if one drive fails, you lose your data. Level 5 raid means that the data is placed on every drive within the raid and if a drive fails, you still have that piece of data on other drives, and it automatically recovers.

So, we now get a really cool-looking raid box, with better data protection all for the same price that we're already paying.

Now I just have to figure out how to buy one.



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Bart HarrisonRe: XRaid/Cinewave
by on Feb 20, 2003 at 6:24:13 am

[Justin Allen] "Now I just have to figure out how to buy one. "

...or two !! :)

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Build `em right... support `em well... let our customers do the talking !"

Bart Harrison
Multimedia Programming America
The HD Suite

America's VAR
Apple, Shake, CineWave, Kona, & Rorke SAN
http://www.mpa.net


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Johan EdstromRe: XRaid/Cinewave
by on Feb 20, 2003 at 8:16:57 am

How cool! Please keep us informed on further test results.


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Rune HansenRe: XRaid/Cinewave - RAID levels
by on Feb 20, 2003 at 9:06:14 am

[cawan] "The system is working great off the XRaid using the supplied copper cables. The data rates are the highest that I ever recorded using the cinewave testing utility. We will continue to test and report our findings."

Cawan, I can't wait to get my hands on one of these puppies.

One of the things I really want to try is to set one up as a RAID 3/30 instead of RAID level 5/50. As you probably know, level 5 uses all the disks with an XOR parity setup to guarantee the redundancy of the information. This, however, is not as fast for large file transfers as using a single disk for the parity information (level 3). This is especially true for write operations, because level 5 has to calculate the XOR and write the redundancy data to the correct disk, basically complicating the write sequence a lot.

RAID level 5 is generally considered best for smaller files, and level 3 is really fast for big sustained transfers. Medea chose level 3 for the RTS/RTR arrays, for example. Levels 50/30 are basically levels 5/3 striped on two identical arrays, boosting speed quite a lot.

Both 3 and 5 offer the same redundancy level -- you can lose one entire disk without risking the integrity/operation of the array.

It might be something to try out. I'm also curious about what options we have for implementing these in SANs -- Apple doesn't seem to have considered that so far. Also, I really really want to put an FC card in a mirror door G4 and see how that compares.

Oh well, I guess I'll have to wait until I get one of these... Or two... And some very long ADC connections so I can put the machines/disks somewhere else...

--rune


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chrispyRe: XRaid/Cinewave - RAID levels
by on Feb 20, 2003 at 11:17:56 am

Hi Cawan,

Do you think it would be possible to configure the XRAID in a split setup, meaning two G4s or two XServes connecting directly to the XRAID which each CPU taking half the storage and run CinewaveHD...as according to the specs each CPU should get 200MB/sec throughput but even not sustained we should be able to get at least 160Mb/sec for HD.

-chrispy



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Rune HansenRe: XRaid/Cinewave - RAID levels
by on Feb 20, 2003 at 3:37:33 pm

[ chrispy ] Do you think it would be possible to configure the XRAID in a split setup, meaning two G4s or two XServes connecting directly to the XRAID which each CPU taking half the storage and run CinewaveHD...as according to the specs each CPU should get 200MB/sec throughput but even not sustained we should be able to get at least 160Mb/sec for HD.

This setup is described in the Deployment website of the XServe RAID. Each half of the array would give 200 MB/sec, since each half has a 2Gbps fibre channel port. So basically on a 2.5 TB array, each machine would have 1.25 TB to play with and a dedicated FibreChannel port.

What I want is somehow for both machines to have access to the entire RAID, though, but that would require some SAN software, and so far I haven't heard of people trying it.

--rune


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Jeremy TohtzRe: XRaid/Cinewave - RAID levels
by on Feb 20, 2003 at 4:33:00 pm

I do not think you can do shared storage like a SAN would deliver. ( 2 editors can not be editing the same video at the same time)


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chrispyRe: XRaid/Cinewave - RAID levels
by on Feb 20, 2003 at 4:49:37 pm

Well, it would be great to have a HD-SAN for editing but I think at this point it is not possible yet...but for a start to have two systems, be it SD or HD, to be able to connect to the XRAID and use the storage separately at that price point is already quite cool.

-chrispy


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Bart HarrisonRe: XRaid/Cinewave - RAID levels
by on Feb 20, 2003 at 5:00:20 pm

They say love and sex aren't the same thing (but they do go good together). On the other hand shared storage (SAN) and FibreChannel aren't the same thing either, but they also go good together.

One could theoretically hook several PowerMac's to a single XRaid via a FibreChannel switch/hub. But without special SAN software (to arbitrate/organize shared usage) they would soon overwrite each other's files and totally corrupt the drive. The big question here is whether or not Apple is working on shared storage (SAN) software for their XRaid devices or will we have to wait on a third party offering. My wager is on Apple (maybe at NAB) !! Any thoughts ?

Bart

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Build `em right... support `em well... let our customers do the talking !"

Bart Harrison
Multimedia Programming America
The HD Suite

America's VAR
Apple, Shake, CineWave, Kona, & Rorke SAN
http://www.mpa.net


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Rune HansenRe: XRaid/Cinewave - RAID levels
by on Feb 20, 2003 at 5:32:20 pm

[Bart Harrison] "One could theoretically hook several PowerMac's to a single XRaid via a FibreChannel switch/hub. But without special SAN software (to arbitrate/organize shared usage) they would soon overwrite each other's files and totally corrupt the drive. The big question here is whether or not Apple is working on shared storage (SAN) software for their XRaid devices or will we have to wait on a third party offering. My wager is on Apple (maybe at NAB) !! Any thoughts ?"

My bet is that either Apple develops this or some third-party comes up with it. It would certainly be interesting to try the XServe RAID on a non-Apple machine. It should theoretically just show up as FC storage. Bart, you guys have done SANs, so you could maybe find this out. I'm crossing my fingers that it's as standard FC as possible...

The price on these things is just insane, though, and is what drives me to love them most. I want to use it for everything, and I really want to know the performance in the MDD machines, to see if the slower bus actually has any impact.

The price and performance is wild enough that it's perfect even for something as cheap as DV SAN editing, and definitely for SD. The FC card is also totally insanely priced.

If Apple develops a SAN software I'm sure it would be called iSAN, by the way. :-)

--rune


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Jeremy TohtzRe: XRaid/Cinewave - RAID levels
by on Feb 20, 2003 at 10:11:14 pm

They could be...

They have worked very well with Rorke Data on the SAN solutions. I don't know if SAN's is a game they want to get into. Not saying they couldn't be successful. I think they should focus more time on putting a faster chips in their boxes.

Thats just my 2 cents.


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Rune HansenRe: XRaid/Cinewave - RAID levels
by on Feb 20, 2003 at 5:26:02 pm

[Jeremy Tohtz] "I do not think you can do shared storage like a SAN would deliver. ( 2 editors can not be editing the same video at the same time) "

Currently that's correct, just like the Deployment webpage at Apple says.

However, I would be surprised if this isn't supported by some SAN software at some point. For SD editing in SAN, the XServe RAID looks totally amazing, it's just missing the software. Any of you guys who have ImageSAN or something like that, it would be great if you could try it with XServe RAID...

--rune


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Tom GrottingRe: XRaid/Cinewave - RAID levels
by on Feb 20, 2003 at 7:21:33 pm

You can download a 30 day eval of ImageSAN from Rorke. http://www.rorke.com/imagesan/evaluation.html


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Bart HarrisonRe: XRaid/Cinewave - RAID levels
by on Feb 20, 2003 at 8:39:17 pm

[Tom Grotting] "You can download a 30 day eval of ImageSAN from Rorke. http://www.rorke.com/imagesan/evaluation.html "

...not yet recommended for CineWave.

Bart

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Build `em right... support `em well... let our customers do the talking !"

Bart Harrison
Multimedia Programming America
The HD Suite

America's VAR
Apple, Shake, CineWave, Kona, & Rorke SAN
http://www.mpa.net


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Tom GrottingRe: XRaid/Cinewave - RAID levels
by on Feb 21, 2003 at 1:38:03 am

Kindof fun to try, though. In reality this product from Apple may make all of the mfgrs retreat a bit. I think that more and more, it will be up to the VAR, and the savy user to grab the reigns and make some of these solutions work. Even if not certified. My feeling is that, while interesting, Apple has thrown it's partners a curve ball with no consult, leaving big holes in technology. Like this one. Whose SAN software will Apple use? They sure don't know. They barely recognize the need.

It is very interesting, though. It makes for better fodder at NAB! Better than crabbing at Discreet, eh?

Tom


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Bart HarrisonRe: XRaid/Cinewave - RAID levels
by on Feb 21, 2003 at 1:41:24 am

Amen to that !!! Looking forward to seeing you guys there !

Bart

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Build `em right... support `em well... let our customers do the talking !"

Bart Harrison
Multimedia Programming America
The HD Suite

America's VAR
Apple, Shake, CineWave, Kona, & Rorke SAN
http://www.mpa.net


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francois.starkRe: XRaid/Cinewave with Rorke ImageSAN
by on Feb 21, 2003 at 6:35:36 pm

Apologies if you've read my previous post dated Feb 14, but here it is again:


Well, I've just read the requirements for Rorke ImageSAN:
"
---------------
System Requirements OSX

G3 or better
Apple OSX 10.X (Note OS9 and below are not supported by ImageSANOSX)
LAN network installed
Internet access for licensing
ATTO FC HBA
Rorke Data or any FC storage
Any FC switch or hub
-----------------------
"
That last two lines leaves it pretty much open to any FC storage and any hub! Which means that theoretically, The Rorke ImageSAN software should work with Apple XServe Raid - which should look like any other FC storage connected to the FC fabric!



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Bart HarrisonRe: XRaid/Cinewave with Rorke ImageSAN
by on Feb 21, 2003 at 6:49:27 pm

Hey francois,

The bottom line is simple. Rorke (Bell Micro) bought/developed ImageSAN OS X to help sell their SAN hardware. They are not a software company per se'. This is similar to why Apple bought/developed FCP, to sell Apple hardware. FCP was originally developed to run on both Apple and WinTel hardware. This didn't serve Apple's interests so today it only runs on Apple hardware. Although ImageSAN may currently run on all flavors of FibreChannel/SAN hardware I don't think Rorke will allow that to continue if Apple starts chewing into their lucrative hardware/storage business using the very software they developed to give them market leverage.

Just my two cents !

Bart

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Build `em right... support `em well... let our customers do the talking !"

Bart Harrison
Multimedia Programming America
The HD Suite

America's VAR
Apple, Shake, CineWave, Kona, & Rorke SAN
http://www.mpa.net


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Rune HansenRe: XRaid/Cinewave with Rorke ImageSAN
by on Feb 21, 2003 at 9:55:22 pm

[ Bart Harrison ] his is similar to why Apple bought/developed FCP, to sell Apple hardware. FCP was originally developed to run on both Apple and WinTel hardware. This didn't serve Apple's interests so today it only runs on Apple hardware. Although ImageSAN may currently run on all flavors of FibreChannel/SAN hardware I don't think Rorke will allow that to continue if Apple starts chewing into their lucrative hardware/storage business using the very software they developed to give them market leverage.

Key Grip (the Macromedia name for FCP, for some unknown reason -- a grip has nothing to do with editing, right?) was cross-platform, but I guess that was pretty much canned immediately upon arrival at Apple. Also, FCP exists because of the Avid move to the Windows platform, which was causing serious damage on Apple's position as a video platform. It was a brilliant move, of course, and I smiled a bit when Avid released Symphony/X the other day. Hillarious.

As for SAN software, it's totally obvious that this will happen. It will just have to -- this storage is too cheap and too fast and too well made to be left out in the cold.

--rune


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Bart HarrisonRe: XRaid/Cinewave with Rorke ImageSAN
by on Feb 21, 2003 at 10:05:50 pm

[Rune Hansen] "As for SAN software, it's totally obvious that this will happen."

Hey, if Apple dosen't announce a SAN (software) product at NAB I'd be really surprised. And if/when they do I'll be right there celebrating ! These are very interesting times !!

Bart


- - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Build `em right... support `em well... let our customers do the talking !"

Bart Harrison
Multimedia Programming America
The HD Suite

America's VAR
Apple, Shake, CineWave, Kona, & Rorke SAN
http://www.mpa.net


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gauravRe: XRaid/Cinewave with Rorke ImageSAN
by on Feb 23, 2003 at 7:52:18 am

Xserve RAID is good & at good price point. but I am thinking what is so ground breaking that XRAID has got. Just price.

Wont it be great if we would have a small 3-5 ports switch in there and also gigabite ethernet suport.


regards
gaurav


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Johan EdstromRe: XRaid/Cinewave with Rorke ImageSAN
by on Feb 23, 2003 at 8:39:39 am

What would be the point of Gigabyte Ethernet support. Ethernet on the XServe is only ment to be used to control the unit, not to transfer data stored on it. You can add a Fiberchannel switch of your own choice if you want.


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Johan EdstromRe: XRaid/Cinewave with Rorke ImageSAN
by on Feb 23, 2003 at 11:25:47 am

That should be Gigabit Ethernet of course...


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Bart HarrisonRe: XRaid/Cinewave with Rorke ImageSAN
by on Feb 23, 2003 at 5:45:59 pm

[gaurav] "and also gigabite ethernet suport. "

HugeSystems is working on a SAN system using gigabit ethernet (instead of FibreChannel). They plan to demonstrate dual stream uncompressed support at NAB. This is a radically different approach to any other SAN product out there.

Bart

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Build `em right... support `em well... let our customers do the talking !"

Bart Harrison
Multimedia Programming America
The HD Suite

America's VAR
Apple, Shake, CineWave, Kona, & Rorke SAN
http://www.mpa.net


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gauravRe: XRaid/Cinewave with Rorke ImageSAN
by on Feb 24, 2003 at 4:23:50 pm

Yes this is the typical product that a lot of 2-4 NLE users would want. all in a box. no headache of going out to but a fiber switch and software. I dont even mind buying additional Fiber HBA's but would like to connect min 3 station on one X raid on fiber sine it suports 400 max.

gaurav


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Aki YoshinagaRe: XRaid/Cinewave - RAID levels
by on Feb 20, 2003 at 10:43:05 pm

just FYI

Hi, We just running CineWave HD with Mylex DF4000R 2Gbit Fibre Channel Dual Systems on RAID50. OS 9 Keeps 250MB/sec Read Performance and 180MB/sec Write rate. It's so comfortable.
But OS 10.2.3 and 10.2.4 performance works 90MB/sec Read,120MB/sec Write. So we can't use this systems in CineWave X. Pinnacle's Disc Performance test comes 180MB/sec Read,150MB/sec write. ATTO Express Stripe bench result are 145MB/sec Read performance, but HD 1080/29.97 couldn't play back.
We tested "Charis Mac Anubis RAID Disk Bench" results comes 90MB/sec Read,120MB/sec Write, and that rate correct.
We found interest things with bus analyse system, OS X with ATTO FC3300 create "Ordered Tag Que" command only. It's mean's first LUN recieved command and reply to Host, then OS X can send next command to storage. It's loses data rates. JBOD 2Gbit Fibre Channel Storage could read and write HD contents in OS X, formatted interleave 32K,mode page video,Tag Command Que option.
And OS X controled data packets all 32K....why? Stripe size and cache line size 32K were best performance on OS X.

Last year, we tested Apple's "X serve RAID" with CineWave, 7 Drives RAID0 performance was 170MB/sec Read,140MB/sec Write.

We've expected X serve RAID "RAID 50"

Sincerly yours

Aki Yoshinaga
Japan Data Storage Tech


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Ben ChengRe: XRaid/Cinewave - RAID levels
by on Feb 24, 2003 at 3:14:34 am


Are u guys testing out the RAID 50 or 30 with CineWaveHD ?

Which HD format ? How is the setup like ?

How many PowerMac are connected to the XRaid ?


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