Stability with new windows???
by Ron
on
Oct 3, 2002 at 9:43:25 pm
It's widely known that there is occational hang-ups and slow-downs when editing on FCP w/ Cinewave over extended periods of time (4-6 hours straight). I am pleased, and somewhat confused, to report that I've been editing a project for the past 4 days with no re-boots, no slow downs, and no hanging.
What did I do differently? I edit with dual monitors (NEC950) and a modified dual screen three-up display arrangement. Browser, Open clips bin, Filter window, Transistion window, and Tool bench on left monitor; Canvas, Viewer, Timeline, VU, and tools on right monitor. Everything is neatly laid out with no window over lap.
This is the only thing I can attribute this new found stability to.
Weird, but interesting...and it probably has nothing to do with it. :)
Ron
PS: project has 100+ clips...TL is about 5 minutes, lots of cuts and some compositing for a single camera music performance edit.
Re: Stability with new windows??? by Matthew Romanis on Oct 3, 2002 at 10:49:50 pm
I have done a similar thing with the reult that my screen freezes and crash rate has dropped considerably. I have also positioned all the window sizes so I can see a small amount of desktop all around the edge of the monitor screens ( This trick also helps with older version of Photo Shop stability). The big leap in stability however came from driving both screens from the same powerful graphics card (Nvidea). Making sure that the small Tool and Audio meter bars are not positioned over Veiwer, Cavas, or Timeline windows,
or where they can interfere with Import / Capture or Export / Edit to tape windows.
Does any one else agree, or can offer other observations?
Re: Stability with new windows??? by Ron on Oct 3, 2002 at 11:02:41 pm
As silly as this sounds, it sounds like we may be on to something. Approximately 2% of my desktop is exposed through FCP. Everything else is FCP windows.
And while we "might" be on to something here, it is also important to note that my system is up to Pinnacle specs as far as minimal extensions, adaquate RAM, and fast hard drives.
Re: Stability with new windows??? by francois.stark on Oct 3, 2002 at 11:08:42 pm
I think it might be the complexity of the whole project.
Older readers of this forum might remember that I bitterly complained about crashing when accessing the network after heavy RT effects usage. Well that's almost completely gone after a complete format and re-install of OS, and up to FCP 3.0.2.
On smaller projects (up to 5 minute timeline) and even when they are quite complex, layered etc, I have a very stable system.
When you go up to 25 min programs, with lots of dual stream and layering, the slowdowns and instability starts.
And I'm running on a single screen DP800 (standard Geforce 2 MX) card.
Re: Stability with new windows??? by Ron on Oct 4, 2002 at 1:55:38 am
That might be true, but the reason I posted this message is because before this project I had a simple 2 minute fast cut, lots of clips sequence that slowed down on me and caused 2 re-boots. Sure the system is stable when all is working, but when you hit that 5th hour of editing things slow to a crawl. I changed my windows for this new project because I needed quick access to some of my bins and effects...this took up more real estate than I normally work with and 4 days later I have yet to re-boot my system!
Like I said, It could be nothing.... I figured I'd get some dialogue started on this and get some opinions. And honestly I think it has more to do with OS9 and FCP than Cinewave. BTW this sequence has plenty of RT effects, nesting, and stills.
Re: Stability with new windows??? by Bart Harrison on Oct 4, 2002 at 5:18:57 am
The last several CineWave installations I've done consisted of a GeForce 4 Titanium (huge card) driving an Apple Cinema display and an Apple Studio display. I have all the primary FCP windows on the wide-screen Cinema display with FCP bins and various finder windows on the smaller Studio display. Nothing overlaps and all these systems are reported to be incredibly stable. By-the-way these GeForce 4 Ti's seem to be incredibly fast especially under 10.2 !
Bart
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Build `em right... support `em well... let our customers do the talking !"
Bart Harrison
Multimedia Programming America
The HD Suite
America's VAR
Apple, Shake, CineWave, Kona, & Rorke SAN
www.mpa.net
Re: Stability with new windows??? by Marco Solorio on Oct 5, 2002 at 12:51:02 am
[Bart Harrison]"By-the-way these GeForce 4 Ti's seem to be incredibly fast especially under 10.2 !"
Credit is due to Jaguar basically making the entire screen OpenGL based through Quartz Extreme (as far as I understand it). If I remember correctly, SGI did the same thing years ago. The more OpenGL power you have on your display card, the more you will start loving Jag.
I've waited years for the Mac OS to finally get to this level!!!
Re: Stability with new windows??? by francois.stark on Oct 4, 2002 at 7:55:53 am
Ok , you know how you would prove the point to me?
When you next do a 26 minute program with lots of effects, using the real-estate method. If it's stable, I'll give you credit for solving one of the remaining riddles of Cinewave on MAC os 9.
Re: Stability with new windows??? by Matthew Romanis on Oct 4, 2002 at 8:12:41 am
I came across this idea of "seeing the desktop" whilst cutting a 90 minute, 8 camera coverage, winter sports program recently (in Australia, for all those looking out the window in the northern hemisphere !!!) for a major network .
The first day was giving me concern with the number of crashs and screen freezes. After making the adjustment the remaing 4 days were a breeze. The program had heaps of colour correcting (damn those lazy cameramen), flash across dissolves, puffin effects, and many others.
It was not as effects heavy as a rock'n 4 min music video, but it was alot for this kind of thing.
I don't beleive this is an end game "fix", just a nice work around.
It would be nice to get some feedback if those with similar problems finds it helps them.
I agree with Bart, large graphics cards are a must.
Re: Stability with new windows??? by Ron on Oct 4, 2002 at 6:51:04 pm
Actually I do have a gig coming up that will be about 30 minutes... I'm definitely eager to test the waters and I'll be sure to post my findings. So I guess you aren't seeing this? Are you loading up your monitors with all FCP windows?
I should also mention I am running two "Apple" graphics cards. When I bought my system (DP500) two years ago, this was one of the only ways to get dual screen output.
Second screen can't run won't run by francois.stark on Oct 4, 2002 at 7:46:25 pm
No, I run on a single 20" screen only. Standard layout. Sometimes I really have too little space in the browser, and thus have to extend it to the right over the timeline.
I come from an environment where we have dual screens on our AVID media composer, two AVID Express systems, our 3ds MAX graphics workstations, and even our FCP 3 DV and offline system (using an old Targa 2000 PCI card to drive the second monitor).
So this is the only system that I can not run dual screens on. I made a big racket about it for the first few months after buying it - the problemn is that the only Pinnacle-approved second display cards, are not available to me in South Africa at all:
ATI Radeon 7000 PCI - the local ATI distributors don't import MAC stuff at all.(wont!!!) You can buy it from the ATI website as long as you live in the US!
So eventually I gave up on the dual screen - I've got a second 20" monitor (remnant of the discreet edit*) standing to the right of my Cinewave screen, not even plugged in to anything!
I thought I would be clever and bought a DVI to 15pin d-sub converter cable to connect the second screen to the Geforce 2 MX daul screen card that came with the G4, but only realised later that the card has a special kind of DVI connector that supplies power as well, only for use with the beautifull bur overpriced Apple cinema displays.
So that's the story why I'm still only running Cinewave on one screen. Does anybody out there have any bright ideas to get my second screen working?
Re: Second screen can't run won't run by Marco Solorio on Oct 5, 2002 at 1:04:26 am
[francois.stark]"Pinnacle-approved second display cards, are not available to me in South Africa at all"
Wow, first I thought you were in France. Then I thought you were in Canada. So you are from South Africa? One day I'll get it straight!
[francois.stark]"I've got a second 20" monitor (remnant of the discreet edit*) standing to the right of my Cinewave screen, not even plugged in to anything!"
Now THAT is pure torture! I feel for you!
[francois.stark]"I thought I would be clever and bought a DVI to 15pin d-sub converter cable to connect the second screen to the Geforce 2 MX daul screen card that came with the G4, but only realised later that the card has a special kind of DVI connector that supplies power as well, only for use with the beautifull bur overpriced Apple cinema displays."
It is an ADC connector. You can get a VGA to ADC converter unit. I forget who makes it though. I saw them at NBA and I can still see the unit in my head! I'm sure someone can chime in with the manufacturer of it. If I run into it, I'll chime back in.
Re: Second screen can't run won't run by Walter Biscardi on Oct 5, 2002 at 9:00:12 am
[francois.stark]"Only problem: Price is $395. And then you end up driving a second monitor from the Geforce 2 MX which Pinnacle specifically advises against. "
Fracois, ensure that you really do have a DVI connection and NOT an ADC connection. DVI is a rectagular connection and ADC is a round connection.
If it really is a square connection, you can always email me your address. I have a DVI to VGA adapter here that's actually made by Apple. It was only $65 through CompUSA (www.compusa.com) and I have another unit that was made by TrippLite that was only $50 which came from MacMall (www.macmall.com). I did a couple of installs for clients with Dual GHz models and inadvertently bought the DVI adapters when we needed ADC adapters. Both of those systems are running two monitors off the standard graphics card that came with the Dual Ghz model. Not sure if it's the same one as you describe, but it sounds like it.
I kept the adapters because you never know when they might come in handy.
Walter Biscardi
Final Cut Pro / CineWave Forum Host
Owner/Creative Director, d'Arte media creations
www.dartemedia.com
Re: Second screen can't run won't run by francois.stark on Oct 5, 2002 at 12:49:36 pm
Thanks, Walter.
Yes, I do have a ADC connector on the card - the one meant for the Apple Cinema display. And I did buy a DVI to VGA cable -useless since I have an ADC connector on the card, not a DVI connector.
Anyway, a creativecow lurker mailed me with an offer to buy his spare Radeon 7000 PCI card - yipee!!!
Thanks for the offer of the converter, but I rather get the PCI card.
Re: Second screen can't run won't run by Bart Harrison on Oct 5, 2002 at 5:19:09 pm
Francois,
Glad to hear things are a little more stable for you down there. Concerning your dual monitor situation. Can you order directly from Apple or the Apple Store website ? They have an ADC to DVI adapter that might allow you to use the DVI to VGA adapter you already have. They also have the Nvidia GeForce 4 Ti kit which is really one hot video card, but it's designed to primarily to work with ADC and DVI digital connection instead of analog VGA. By-the-way once you get used to those "overpriced" Apple Cinema and Apple Studio displays you never want to go back. I kinda feel like a drug dealer because once I introduce my customers to those things their absolutely "hooked". Anyway glad to hear that things are working better for you !!
Bart
P.S. I don't think there are any export restrictions between the US and SA. If you ever need anything (other than Apple components) let me know. I can probably pick it up and FedEx it to you.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Build `em right... support `em well... let our customers do the talking !"
Bart Harrison
Multimedia Programming America
The HD Suite
America's VAR
Apple, Shake, CineWave, Kona, & Rorke SAN
www.mpa.net
Re: Stability with new windows??? by Johan Edstrom on Oct 5, 2002 at 10:48:58 am
Closing as many windows as possible is always a good idea. When I edit to tape I only have the "edit to tape" and "browser" window open. I also quit all other apps and re-launch FCP before editing to tape. If I'm in no rush I also reboot first.
Re: Stability with new windows??? by Bart Harrison on Oct 5, 2002 at 5:38:56 pm
Ron,
You can now get the GeForce 4Ti upgrade kit for your DP500 directly from Apple. The downside is it's $400US. But these things REALLY cook especially under 10.2 (and don't use much in the way of CPU cycles in the process) !!
Bart
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Build `em right... support `em well... let our customers do the talking !"
Bart Harrison
Multimedia Programming America
The HD Suite
America's VAR
Apple, Shake, CineWave, Kona, & Rorke SAN
www.mpa.net
Re: Stability with new windows??? by Ron on Oct 5, 2002 at 6:30:26 pm
Can I run 2 VGA monitors off of it? (NEC FE950) I guess I would also need converters. The only downside to my setup now is the extra graphics card that max's out my PCI slots.
$400+ is steep, but I'll check it out... I'm holding out for a new "Lava Mac" once the reports are favorable.
Re: Stability with new windows??? by Bart Harrison on Oct 5, 2002 at 6:49:30 pm
We run two Apple flat panels off of the Ti card. It replaces the existing AGP card in your Power Mac. The Ti has an ADC and a DVI connector on it. I expect both can be converted to VGA with a simple cable adapter (but what a waste.) DVI is the new graphics display standard as analog VGA once was back in the early 80's. If you've never worked with DVI (ADC is DVI) connected to a good DVI based display you're in for a pleasent surprise. It's well worth the additional investment, especially if you work very long hours like I do !
Bart
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Build `em right... support `em well... let our customers do the talking !"
Bart Harrison
Multimedia Programming America
The HD Suite
America's VAR
Apple, Shake, CineWave, Kona, & Rorke SAN
www.mpa.net
ADC & DVI cable length by Johan Edstrom on Oct 5, 2002 at 7:09:13 pm
The only drawback is ADC and DVI cable length. If you have your G4 in a machine room 100 feet away you need a very expensive extension solution (check out Geffen). Shorter extensions are fortunately not so expensive. The monitors included cable lengths are really way too short. I got my Cinemadisplay when it first came out and then there where no extensions to be had so I had to design my whole set-up around this stupid cable. I really recommend the Apple flat panels though. I find I can work about 50% longer days than on a CRT without getting a head ache.
Re: Stability with new windows??? by Ron on Oct 5, 2002 at 8:52:46 pm
Thanks for the info, and I'm sure it would be a waste. I plan on getting at least on Apple display when I take the dive into a new "Lava Mac." I'll keep my DP500 in service with my current VGA setup.
