How to get the best possible DV images?
by Andy Taplin
on
Nov 1, 2002 at 2:53:27 pm
I've just moved from an ageing Sony BVP 70 to an Ikegami HLDV-7 DVCAM. I have used it on 3 shoots now and have some observations about picture quality which perhaps some of you might like to comment on. By the way I'm based in the UK and I'm shooting PAL.
Firstly, I am struck by the overall sharpness and contrasty nature of the pictures which I see as both good and bad. And also by the almost total lack of 'noise' which I like.
In terms of the sharpness/contrast: compared to what I have got used to with the look of my old Sony I'm yet to be totally convinced by the pictures from the Ikegami. On wide shots with lots of fine horizontal detail I see a lot more interlace flicker than I'm used to. Is this a feature of DV compression or more to do with the increased resolution of the camera picking up detail that would be lost on my old Sony?
I think for those of us video guys who can't afford digibeta DVCAM is the only way to go - so how to get the best out of it?
I have sofftend the detail a bit in the camera setup but it seems to have marginal effect.
I see 2 possible solutions to the overly sharp nature of the pictures - promist filters and/or some sort of post softening filter perhaps via After Effects applied to the entire finished programme. Any thoughts on this? And does anybody share my view of DV pictures compared to Beta SP?
I must say that broadcasted DV can look pretty good - do the TV stations do something to the signal during transmission that gets rid of most interlace flicker artefacts (most TV graphics here in the UK are flicker free even when very fine lines are used).
On the plus side the Ikegami is a delight to use, and is much better in low light situations. Perhaps I'm being overly critical I just though 10 years of development in CCD and electronics would yeild inarguably better picture qulaity at the Pro end of the market. I do realise that the Ikegami cost less tha half what my Sony did in real terms.
Any thoughts on how to make DV less 'video' like appreciated.
Re: How to get the best possible DV images? by Rick Gerard on Nov 1, 2002 at 9:05:41 pm
I haven’t played with the Iki at all, but IMHO the camera setup is the key to the look. I owned several Iki’s over the years starting with an HL79 and always preferred the extra control that Iki allows. Sony cameras are great, but they just aren’t as customizable. When I was shooting for CBS they had specific setups that they expected you to use for different shows and each setup produced a decidedly different look.
I’d hook the camera up to a good critical monitor, waveform and vector scope and start fooling around with the settings. When you have the look you want, roll a little tape and check it on the same monitor. I’d expect better playback from a deck like a DSR 80 or DSR 2000 than you’ll get from the camera. The video playback from the camera is not going to be optimized and is not going to be a true representation of what the DVCAM format can reproduce. I know of no manufacturers include all of the fancy circuitry needed to clean up DV signals in their camcorders. Make sure you’re looking at the video through a optimized playback system.
DVCAM is a great format. You’ll find a little aliasing on diagonal lines at around 30° that you won’t see in Beta SP, but there’s a lot less noise in the picture. You may also see some color space artifacts right next to large areas of intense colors that don’t appear in analogue video. For the most part, DVCAM and DV will give you pretty much what the camera sees. It’s a very good format and does a great job with the luminance channel. DV and DVCAM is much better than Beta SP in many regards and much more affordable. Digi Beta and Beta SX are better. You are going to pay about $10K for each small baby step up in quality. There is an additional $20K hit to move up to the first level of HD.
Throwing another $10K at your camera budget (Beta SX or DVC pro 50) just to eliminate a little noise in the diagonal lines and areas of high detail, requires that you have clients that are willing to spend another $150 to $300 / day for the gear. These days, most of my clients don’t feel that the slight increase in clarity is worth the extra dough. They’d rather shoot DV and throw the money at a better narrator or better music.
Re: How to get the best possible DV images? by Andy Taplin on Nov 2, 2002 at 6:38:17 pm
Thanks Rick. I have not had the camera long and will play with the setup a bit more.
I agree with you about the price/performance issues. DVCAM is the only cost effective alternative to the now defunct SP so we have to get the best out of it. I guess as the user base grows there will be more info to draw on.
One last thing: you seem to think that DVCAM is as near as damm it as good as SP (given a decent fron end) and in some areas like noise much better. That is my opinion too, but others on this forum seem to think that DVCAM is visibly inferior overall. I wonder if they are prepared to shell out for Digi so as not to go backwards as far as quality is concerned?
Re: How to get the best possible DV images? by John Sharaf on Nov 2, 2002 at 8:05:03 pm
Andy,
FYI, Sony is positioning it's new IMX digital format as the successor to SP. It is a 50MB 4:2:2 digital format and is packaged as a camcorder known as MSW900 at a price less than the last BVW600. They are actually in the process of sending me one for evaluation and I'll report back soon!
The specs on the camera are quite impressive and the editing decks are backwards compatible with SP and SX!
As far as the DV7, I've thouroughly tested this unit and find the front end compares favorably to Ike's final beta camcorder (HLV59) even though it's only an IT chip set; as regards the recorder, you must have noticed that the bandwidth and signal to noise specs are slightly better than SP!
Re: How to get the best possible DV images? by Shooter on Nov 4, 2002 at 1:32:27 am
John
Very interesting news for anybody considering what's next in the format wars. How does this new format compare to Digibeta?
Have you heard how soon we'll see this on the market?
Re: How to get the best possible DV images? by John Sharaf on Nov 4, 2002 at 1:53:18 am
The new Sony format "IMX" is an MPEG2 compression, so it will not be as high quality a recording as Digibeta, but it's fairly safe to assume that the camera front end will be very compatible to the current IT version of the Digibeta camcorder (both offer SDI output with accessory backs).
This format is really designed/intended for news and other SDTV applications and features faster than real time download and other features like 30 second pre-record that are especially appropriate for news.
I know that Avid amoung others has announced that the next upgrade of their software for the Express/Composer/Symphony and presumably Newscutter, will include native "IMX" capability. Because it is a digital MPEG format it will have advantages for DVD and other digital distribution, in that additional encoding will not be necessary.
I can only guess that the major news outlets that have migrated, or are planning to, to Avid style post-production will be looking quite seriously at the format, especially because of the backward compatibility with the SP and SX formats that many of them have years of past archived materials. It's ironic that if it does catch on that it will inevitably delay HD implimentation in this genre.
I believe it's available presently, as I expect to receive my test unit by November 11!
Re: How to get the best possible DV images? by derek hall on Nov 4, 2002 at 12:29:01 pm
Friend of mine is evaluating IMX too.
Specs rank it between SP and DB, closer to the latter with some notable advantages over DV/DVCam.
Sony intend this to be the main industry successor to SP with a similar lifespan including enhancements.
If I recall, the pre-record is 8 seconds, not 30 (but correct me on that...) and another interesting feature is genuine time lapse shooting. The camera can not shoot just one frame at a time, but it will record one frame onto its memory, then dump the collected frames from memory onto the tape at a set point.
I can't remember all the other features but it has an extensive menu and lots to enjoy.
The question, though, is the same one this thread is raising: if IMX is not as good as DB, and DVCam is better than SP, then where exactly is the place in the market for something in between. Also, more and more drama and high-end doco work are moving into HD territory, (and a lot of users I know are finding DVCPro50 offers a noticably better picture than DB).
It will be interesting to see how this pans out. Sony will be throwing IMX at the market to make it the standard TV acquisition format for mid-range production, news, and magazine programming. The IMX camera does have things that make it attractive in this area, for example although lighter than an SP camera, it has the weight that makes steady operation easier than with small cameras, and its feature set can't be found in DVCam.
Also, a deck that will play tapes in IMX, SP, SX, and DB formats is a very interesting option for a production/post house.
Everything we do currently is on DB, or DVCam for incidental or discreet shooting -- I think our SP deck will die at the 'right' time, about 5-6 years from now, and we'll need something to access a large SP library while at the same time new acquisition will be mostly in DB/IMX. The multi-format IMX deck will be perfect for that role, and I suspect this is exactly Sony's strategy. IMX will meet the backward and forward compatibility issues that will confront most prod. houses who have sourced primarily on SP for about the last 10-15 years.
Re: How to get the best possible DV images? by Leo Ticheli on Nov 4, 2002 at 7:42:22 pm
I'll go way out on a limb and predict less than a smashing success for IMX.
Sometimes, when a new product appears, you feel it deep in your heart; a
feeling that cannot be denied. We all felt it when BetaCam first appeared; I
just don't feel it this time and I'll tell you why...
Many former users of SP have already jumped to DV. Local news operations
love the format; everything about it is cheap, the cameras, the decks, the
tape. The quality is fine for news gathering. Few stations moved up to
Digital BetaCam to replace SP; I'm betting they won't spring for IMX cameras
even if they are compatible with older decks.
Small-budget production companies are also on the DV band-wagon. Just look
at the posts here. For these jobs, image quality is defined by that of local
news; if it's good enough for the six o'clock news, it's good enough for the
local car dealer.
Just think about the maintenance costs on older decks; for the cost of a
year's maintenance, you can probably replace them with a DV deck. These are
austere times; few want to fund maintenance personnel and repairs.
That pretty well takes care of the low-end; at the high-end, I predict more
and more shooters moving to HD. You can buy a VariCam system for about the
price of Digital BetaCam and compete with 35 MM film. Clients love it; the
image is stunning, the price is as affordable to them as Digital BetaCam
production.
This leaves Sony and IMX to battle for an increasingly narrow middle ground,
and, as much as I respect Sony's power, I don't think this one's a winner.
I'm not criticizing the format, I just don't see IMX as having the impact
Sony would like.
Re: How to get the best possible DV images? by derek hall on Nov 5, 2002 at 2:15:02 pm
I pretty much agree with you on most points. Sony will have a tough job doing claiming market share with IMX. I think where it will be slightly easier is not with people buying the cameras, but with post houses buying the IMX deck as a replacement for SP decks, since the IMX deck plays several tape formats and that will make the post house compatible with IMX, SP, SX and DB formats all in one hit. The problem there, however, is that although the IMX PLAYS those formats, it only RECORDS in IMX, and most broadcasters (at least in the territories we deal with) now stipulate program delivery in DB.
As for cameras, if I was buying something tomorrow, I honestly wouldn't know what to do. Even if we could afford HD, I'm not sure what the best move would be. Personally I'm a fan of DVCPro50, and Panasonic have a sexy HD camera with variable frame rates, but again, broadcasters like Discovery and NatGeo consider DVCPro too compressed for delivery of masters and still want DB or HD (even though DB is actually compressed). It's a real bad time to be investing in video hardware...
Re: How to get the best possible DV images? by derek hall on Nov 5, 2002 at 2:19:59 pm
Sorry, didn't realise the 'VariCam' system you referred to was the Panasonic -- yes, that is definitely an option I would consider. I think DVCPro looks significantly better than DB and will be very interested to see what VariCam pictures look like.
D
Re: How to get the best possible DV images? by Andy Taplin on Nov 4, 2002 at 11:42:17 am
Good 'ol Sony, yet another format to buy into! I'll be interested to know what you make of it.
As for the DV7, I have yet to fully evaluate the pictures but the one thing I have noticed (component signal not looked at DV properly yet) is a bit more aliasing on sharp, contrasty edges than I'm used to with Beta. I need to check out the DV signal and see if that's any different. Apart from that I think the camera and format is good for the money and in many ways better than my old BVP70.
Re: How to get the best possible DV images? by Ken Zukin on Nov 12, 2002 at 5:51:39 pm
I currently shoot with an Ikegami HL V-55 (Beta SP one-piece)...that still makes pristine images...even though it lacks the sensitivity and many of the menu-driven features of the current generation of cameras.
Since I edit as well, I'm interested in eventually migrating to a digital format of some type...apparently the next generation of firewire will be a larger "pipleine" capable of transferring the higher data-rates of say DVC Pro 50...even Pro 100.
Thats great, but I'm partial to the look of an Ikegami...does anyone know if they are planning a one-peice camera that records on a format that is placed somewhere btw. DV Cam & HD???
Re: How to get the best possible DV images? by John Sharaf on Nov 12, 2002 at 6:01:47 pm
Ken,
Your best bet is to check out the Ike HL-DV7 (or DV5 if you don't want or need 16x9). This camera, which is priced at about $10000 rivals the picture of the HLV59 and includes all the improvements included in the new digital camera design and it is a firewire equiped DVCAM.
As far as something between DVCAM and HD, I don't think Ikegami will be making such an offering. I know that they will soon (perhaps by next NAB) offer the Sony HDCAM in a camcorder version in addition to the DVPRO100 camcorder they make now, but as far as IMX or Digibeta, there are more or less being held hostage by Sony.
