Creative COW SIGN IN :: SPONSORS :: ADVERTISING :: ABOUT US :: CONTACT US
Creative COW's LinkedIn GroupCreative COW's Facebook PageCreative COW on TwitterCreative COW's Google+ PageCreative COW on YouTube
MEDIA 100:Media 100 844/X ForumMedia 100 ForumMedia 100 TutorialsMedia 100

720 vs 640 and 300kb vs 150kb

COW Forums : Media 100 | Media 100 HD

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Share on Facebook
J.R.Ellis720 vs 640 and 300kb vs 150kb
by on Apr 15, 2001 at 12:32:32 am

Is there any inherent advantage to NTSC footage digitized at either 640 or 720 (other than to incorporate DV footage)? Is there any difference in quality, or ease of keying, by going to
720? Do 720 files take up more space, and if so, approximately what percentage? Also, as far as broadcast quality is concerned, what is the difference between 150kb and 300kb
files...I do a lot of work on client supplied M100 files and I'd like to get some straight poop before I go shooting my mouth off to these guys. Any help is appreciated.


Return to posts index

Per ThorvaldsenWhat is the difference...
by on Apr 15, 2001 at 11:23:36 am

between 150 and 300kb? What is the difference between 150 and 75kb? What is the difference between 300kb and uncompressed? The only thing that can be said is that it IS a difference - how visible it is depends on your material...."small" difference on a talking head, "big" difference on, say, a tree full of leaves. If you have the storage and your system can handle it, it´s always better with higher datarates. If you choose a lower datarate, it is always to SAVE something (money, space), NEVER for reasons of quality.

The variables are these: compression scheme, implementation of it and data rate. In some cases the implementation of the compression scheme might vary, so that a data rate from one company might give better results than the same (or higher) data rate from another company even when using the same compression scheme (this have been claimed at a number of occasions for the Media100 implementation of M-JPEG,like it - before quicktime 5 - was claimed that Promax DV codec was much better than the Apple DV codec).

While remembering this, the rule of thumb is: Higher data rates are always better than lower ones within the same compression scheme, but you can´t compare data rates between different compression schemes. For example, MPEG is a much more efficient compression scheme than M-JPEG, and so is even DV (on this one I guess a lot of people would like to chop my head off). At the same data rate MPEG will give results far superior to M-JPEG, and it will give the "same" result on a much lower data rate. Even DV will give better results than M-JPEG at the same data rate, but DVs fixed data rate (5:1 compression) can´t compete with M-JPEG at highest data rates.

As for "broadcast quality"....this doesn´t make much sense any more: No more strict definitions, big difference between various broadcasters, very much dependent on what part of the programming you are producing for. So, again, rules of thumb (at least as I see them in Europe): "Broadcast" is anything which doesn´t LOOK significantly worse than Beta SP. Here, again, we have (at least) three "variables", quality of recording equipment, quality of editing equipment and master format.

"DV" is clearly "broadcast" if recorded with, say, a DSR-500, edited on DV or M-JPEG at high data rates and mastered to Beta SP. If the shooting is done with a PD-150 it will be accepted as "good enough" by a number of broadcasters, but if they still stick to a sort of "broadcast quality" concept, they will most definitely NOT accept it as falling within THAT definition. So...it´s "good enough" for news and documentaries (where the choice of equipment makes sense).

What goes for "DV"(DVCam) goes for DVC-Pro25 - it´s "broadcast" for all purposes other than the "high(-er) quality" part of the programming, which would demand DigiBeta, DVC-Pro50 or Beta SP/SX (well...not for "drama"). But, of course, all this only goes if they KNOW, and broadcasters have always been easy to fool with masters on Beta SP...

As for M-JPEG editing at 150kb, I wouldn´t know....it´s SO dependent on what you´ve had in front of the camera. But, this is for sure: I wouldn´t BRAG about having used a M-JPEG data rate of 150kb. That said, I wouldn´t brag about a data rate of 300kb either...(why should I talk about data rates at all!?). But if they asked, I would feel MUCH more comfortable answering 300 (360) than 150 - and I´m sure they would treat me much better upon THAT answer.


Return to posts index

jason levyRe: 720 vs 640 - blanking
by on Apr 16, 2001 at 12:52:15 am

Hi,

I am told that footage digitized at 640 has non-standard blanking that can be rejected by some broadcasters. I didn't run into that problem except for once where it was insisted that we blow up all 22 episodes of a series by 3% or so to to correct the blanking and this was done when duping.

The 720 setting is supposed to be completely standard.

jason



Return to posts index


Philip HodgettsRe: 720 vs 640 - blanking
by on Apr 16, 2001 at 1:18:32 am

720 is completely standard blanking. But 640 was within the broadcast specifications, just used by a few 'techno nazi's' in an attempt to keep control over what was broadcast.

Philip


Return to posts index

J.R.EllisRe: 720 vs 640 - keying question
by on Apr 16, 2001 at 7:56:08 am

So let's say you've got a bunch of footage with greenscreens to key (in aftereffects)...and you have the option of digitising at either 720 or 640...is there more information at 720 (making keying theoretically easier), or is there no real gain? (And thank you very much for the responses to my last post).


Return to posts index

Rich RubaschRe: 720 vs 640 - keying question
by on Apr 16, 2001 at 7:30:31 pm

The 720 aspect was more of a concern with non-P6000 cards (Vincent 601) because of the conversion process. It was said that the P6000 looked the best.

Also, supposedly, the P6000 looks best when digitizing through the SDI input at 720. 640 takes a hit.

For chroma keying, I always digitize at 300kb (uncompressed would be best though). I am also a firm supporter of Ultimatte for AfterEffects because it handles Blue or Green screen shots equally well.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media


Return to posts index


mark harveyRe: 720 vs 640 - keying question
by on Apr 16, 2001 at 7:38:03 pm

I equally dig chroma keys at 300 kb at 720 thru SDI from a Betacam SX. Bye the way, have you tried the chroma keys in Boris ??? Unfortunately, I do not have Ultimatte for AE, but I find that the regular chroma keyeres inb Boris more powerful than those of AE. Just an observation.....

Regards
Mark


Return to posts index

Bob RussoRe: 720 vs 640 - blanking
by on Apr 16, 2001 at 11:51:19 pm

I don't think it was all about some Mad Engineers wanting to maintain control. Many stock footage libraries and broadcaster standardized on 720x486. The entire library was made up of 720x486 video, thus it all needed to be this size.

Bob Russo
Videographer/Editor
NAHB Production Group


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Share on Facebook


FORUMSTUTORIALSMAGAZINESTOCKYARDVIDEOSPODCASTSEVENTSSERVICESNEWSLETTERNEWSBLOGS

Creative COW LinkedIn Group Creative COW Facebook Page Creative COW on Twitter
© 2013 CreativeCOW.net All rights are reserved. - Privacy Policy

[Top]