Considerations and Consequences of P2 technology
by Luis Caffesse
on
Mar 28, 2005 at 4:41:04 pm
A lot of people are anticipating the release of Panasonic's new P2 camera, myself included.
But, there has been a lot of negativity thrown at Panasonic over the use of a P2 only camera.
The issues seem to revolve mainly around the cost of P2 cards.
While we won't know the details for a few weeks, there are a few things I wanted to post here to clear up what seem to be some common misrepresentations.
P2 cards require a shift in thinking.
They are not 'media' in the way we think of tapes today, instead they should be viewed as 'memory,' the way we view hard drives today. P2 cards are an investment, not an expendable. Taking that into consideration the cost of P2 cards cannot be expected to be anywhere near that of DV tape. Panasonic has rated the P2 cards for use up to roughly 100,000 times. That's the equivalent of 1667 60 minute DV tapes. So to compare the price of one P2 card to one tape seems to be missing the point completely.
A 4gb P2 card DOES NOT COST $4,000.
I've seen this number thrown around quite a bit. This was the roughly the cost of P2 memory when it was first introduced. The current price of a 4GB P2 card is about $1700, and the 2GB P2 card is now under $1000. Prices are expected to drop again soon (possibly in conjunction with the announcement of the new camera at NAB).
The point here is that many seem to be bashing this new camera based on the cost of P2 memory a year ago. Keep in mind, this camera has yet to be officially announed. The cost of P2 memory a year ago is irrelevant, the cost of P2 memory today is irrelevant, what matters is where the cost of P2 memory will be when the camera is available for purchase.
A 4GB card will hold more than 5 minutes of DVCProHD footage if shot at 24fps.
DVCProHD runs at 100mb/s at all times on the Varicam. That is because the Varicam records 60fps at all times. When you shoot 24fps, the Varicam flags frames as 'active,' and the records duplicate frames to continually record 60fps on tape. This is one of the limitations of using a tape transport. By moving to solid state recording, panasonic has gotten rid of this limitation. That means that there is no reason for the new camera to record duplicate frames. So, the datarate of DVCProHD at 24fps is actually 40mb/s, not 100mb/s.
At that datarate, a 4GB card will hold roughly 13 minutes of 720P 24fps footage.
The 8GB card to be announced at NAB will hold roughly 26 minutes of the same footage.
Lastly, I just want to point out that I think it would be ridiculous to expect P2 technology to be the solution for everything. I've seen posts where people seem to be putting this technology down because they need to shoot 15 hours of footage in one day in the middle of the desert with no power source. Well, guess what? If that's the case then P2 isn't meant for you. Keep using tape.
No format and no 'media' will be the answer to all production flows.
P2 is the answer for many, but it's unfair to shoot it down for the few situations it is not best suited for.
Re: Considerations and Consequences of P2 technology by Ron Lindeboom on Mar 28, 2005 at 4:59:20 pm
[Luis Caffesse]"A 4gb P2 card DOES NOT COST $4,000. I've seen this number thrown around quite a bit. This was the roughly the cost of P2 memory when it was first introduced. The current price of a 4GB P2 card is about $1700, and the 2GB P2 card is now under $1000. Prices are expected to drop again soon (possibly in conjunction with the announcement of the new camera at NAB)."
Yes. Luis, I have read the same posts and wonder "Whose 'marketing marijuana' are these guys smoking?" Obviously, they have a hidden agenda in choosing to be so blatantly blind on issues like these while they (he) remain so pointedly specific on the most minute of details in other areas -- makes me as suspicious and cautious as a mouse at a cat convention.
Another KEY POINT that is missed (I think intentionally in this case) is that Panasonic has not kept DVCPro a "Panasonic Only" party when it comes to making the tape used there. I highly doubt that they'll "lock out" other manufacturers from making memory cards for P2.
Oddly, one of the most vociferous antagonists towards the Panasonic P2 is also one of the most rabid proponents of the 1CCD JVC first-generation HDV camcorders. He can forgive almost any and all shortcomings and blemishes on these cameras but cannot for the life of him, find anything good to say about P2. I must again remain as skeptical and cautious as the proverbial mouse at a cat convention.
Re: Considerations and Consequences of P2 technology by Luis Caffesse on Mar 28, 2005 at 5:09:35 pm
[Ron Lindeboom]"Another KEY POINT that is missed (I think intentionally in this case) is that Panasonic has not kept DVCPro a "Panasonic Only" party when it comes to making the tape used there. I highly doubt that they'll "lock out" other manufacturers from making memory cards for P2. "
Ron, excellent point.
In fact, Jan from Panasonic has pointed this out herself, saying that once the market has a demand for it other manufacturers may offer P2 memory cards. Of course, she was quick to mention that it took Maxell 3 years to determine that it was worth their time to manufacture DVCPro tape, but that can hardly be seen as a fault on Panasonic's side.
This new camera will greatly increase the demand for P2.
Once the demand is there, other manufacturers will take the opportunity.
And once that competition is established in the marketplace, we all know what happens to prices.
Isn't capitalism wonderful?
On another note, I suppose my post wasn't as general as I had hoped to make it. I was trying very hard not to point any fingers. I can excuse misstatements of facts from the casual posters who may simply be making mistakes, but when it comes from sources of knowledge that other rely on, it becomes a big problem.
Re: Considerations and Consequences of P2 technology by Steve Connor on Mar 28, 2005 at 5:29:11 pm
I like the idea of a P2 workflow, but I hope Panasonic also include a tape option as well for the situations where you need to shoot large amounts of material. That really would be a best of both worlds scenario.
Personally I'm looking forward to NAB, so we can all start discussing actual products not just rumours and hype.
Re: Considerations and Consequences of P2 technology by Luis Caffesse on Mar 28, 2005 at 6:42:06 pm
[Steve Connor]"I hope Panasonic also include a tape option as well for the situations where you need to shoot large amounts of material"
If I'm not mistaken, Jan has directly stated that this camera will not include a tape transport.
There are many reasons for that. The biggest one is the fact that the tape transport would only be able to handle DVCPro recording. The strength is just not there on miniDV tapes to handle the high speeds needed for DVCPro50 or DVCProHD. On top of that is the fact that DVCProHD requires 16 record heads (if I'm not mistaken). So it would be virtually impossible to put out a camera which recorded DVCProHD to tape and keep it below the 10K price point this camera is aimed at.
And this brings up another huge plus to solid state recording which I forgot to mention earlier, and that is the fact that you no longer require a deck to capture and digitize your footage. This brings the cost of HD post production down considerably.
So while the cost of P2 memory may seem high at first, consider the fact that there is no deck required, as there would usually be when you introduce a new format into your workflow.
Re: Considerations and Consequences of P2 technology by jeremiah black on Mar 28, 2005 at 9:05:40 pm
Luis Caffesse brings up some good points, but another one I'd like to add is that not having a tape transpost is exactly why these cameras will be under $10,000. Adding a tape transport would add another $5,000 to the price and produce a camaera that's twice as big and bulky.
All things being equal, I'd like to see a tape transport, as well, but I'll happily forgo one to get the great price and a non-shoulder mount camera.
cheers amigos,
jeremiah black
dual 2 gig G5
2.5 gigs of RAM
Decklink Extreme capture card
Re: Considerations and Consequences of P2 technology by Graeme Nattress on Mar 29, 2005 at 12:09:38 am
Compactness, good batterlife and less mechanical things to go wrong sound great in my book. A decent deck has also been a big dollar cost in any edit setup. Computer gear and hard drives are cheap in comparison.
Memory vs. Media by mishka on Mar 28, 2005 at 5:36:12 pm
I've been following the trend of replacing tape with HDD in production sound recording for the last couple of years and the key here is the flexibility and convenience of back-up options. Capacity isn't a problem for sound - modern disks can hold an entire show but the need to send rushes to teleciné and editorial requires regular downloading. What are the options with P2 camcorders?
Re: Considerations and Consequences of P2 technology by tony salgado on Mar 28, 2005 at 6:42:15 pm
Luis stated:
"Panasonic has rated the P2 cards for use up to roughly 100,000 times. That's the equivalent of 1667 60 minute DV tapes. So to compare the price of one P2 card to one tape seems to be missing the point completely."
Luis with all due respect your comparison is quite questionable given the point that a user would have 1667 individual tapes with the footage for long terms storage versus a P2 card which will be erased and recorded over time after time.
Initially it looks like P2 is an ideal solution for ENG applications given the short turnaround and limited lifespan of the material. The pricing of the cards is similar to the complaints the Avid/Ikegami Editcam product had to endure when it was released.
Until a new technology (this includes cars,cameras, computers etc) have been in the field under real world production scenarios and we receive feedback from actual end user's who can provide positive and negative feedback I personally find it is a bit premature to get excited about first generation technology.
Re: Considerations and Consequences of P2 technology by Chris Bell on Mar 28, 2005 at 7:16:38 pm
I think the P2's limitations are great. P2 will force video shooters to "think" when they shoot instead of gathering 10hrs of b-roll for a 2 minute piece. Reminds me of shooting 400' rolls of 16mm film (11 mins each).
Re: Considerations and Consequences of P2 technology by Luis Caffesse on Mar 28, 2005 at 7:27:20 pm
[tony salgado]"Luis with all due respect your comparison is quite questionable given the point that a user would have 1667 individual tapes with the footage for long terms storage versus a P2 card which will be erased and recorded over time after time. "
Fair enough.
You're right, but it's a tough comparisson to make seeing as the use of the media is quite different.
I suppose you could add into that the cost of HD storage for that much footage. In the end I suspect it may still wind up being less expensive, as the cost per GB on hard drives is getting lower everyday.
This just highlights again to me how the use of solid state media for aquisition requires a paradigm shift in the way we look at media and archiving. A 1 to 1 comparison isn't really possible.
Re: Considerations and Consequences of P2 technology by Peter Corbett on Mar 29, 2005 at 10:17:25 am
I don't think the tape versus chip cost argument is even arguing at the moment. Hell, I buy used DVCPRO tapes for my Pro50 on eBay for four bucks a tape. I truly believe P2 IS the future, but tape like words is cheap. I await the almight NAB...
Re: Considerations and Consequences of P2 technology by Peter DeCrescenzo on Mar 28, 2005 at 7:08:51 pm
Hi Luis, and thanks for your detailed post!
[Luis Caffesse]"A lot of people are anticipating the release of Panasonic's new P2 camera, myself included. ..."
Kinda like a spaceship launch .. will it "go" or will it "blow"? Thank goodness these things usally go more often than blow! May the best (several) format(s) win!
[Luis Caffesse]"... But, there has been a lot of negativity thrown at Panasonic over the use of a P2 only camera. ..."
Certainly some negativity, but mostly I've seen caution born of experience. Everyone brings different experiences to the pasture. Big corporations have millions to spend on marketing & hype (and thank goodness for that or some of us would be out of a job!), but for the rest of us, all we've got is this shiny new pasture dotted with an occasional brown patty (which if you keep reading my message you might just step in ...) :)
[Luis Caffesse]"... The issues seem to revolve mainly around the cost of P2 cards. ..."
Yes indeedy, that's _is_ the whole point and nothing but the whole point. In 2 or 3 years (sooner we hope!) much of this converstaion will be moot because P2-style solid-state video-recording memory will (hopefully!) be so inexpensive many users will use it as an expendable, exactly like we currently use tape.
So, while my blabbering on about backing up & verifying & logging & securing (all in realtime) is temporarily important (IMHO), and Steve M.'s stenorously (is that a word?) doing his bit is temporarily important (IMHO), in a year or two the basis of much of this argument goes away. It doesn't make it unimportant today, but it surely becomes less important eventually. But only when P2-style _media_ is cheap.
Meanwhile, P2-style media ain't cheap, and a simple wave of a marketing hand >poof!< it's "memory"! -- well, I've been to the carnival a few times and I've seen this kind of shell game before. Now, before anyone gets their feathers ruffled, I don't mean "marketing hand" or "shell game" in a negative sense! Hardly! As I said a minute ago, some of us make our living constructing marketing and shell games!
"P2 isn't media" isn't a passage in the Bible. It's Panasonic's opinion/belief/positioning statement, and some of you may believe it, and it may even be true, but that doesn't mean it isn't open to debate.
More to the point, it might just be semantics. It's a breath mint/It's a candy! To-mah-to/To-may-to! Media/Memory! Whatever?
[Luis Caffesse]"... P2 cards require a shift in thinking. ..."
A bit perhaps, but be careful: If while your head is "shifting" you're not being distracted from other equally important issues. I'm not implying that you are, but just cautioning here.
Especially if (if) it can be argued that P2-style chips are in fact media, not memory, then there's little or no shift involved. But then there's a different kind of shift involved, one involving large sums of cash being removed from your wallet -- at least for awhile, until P2-style chips come w-a-y down in price.
However, I understand a perfectly legit business case has and can be made for P2-style media _today_, even at its current pricing! I have no problems with that: If you can afford it (and some can) then it's a beautiful thing!
[Luis Caffesse]"... Panasonic has rated the P2 cards for use up to roughly 100,000 times. That's the equivalent of 1667 60 minute DV tapes. So to compare the price of one P2 card to one tape seems to be missing the point completely. ..."
Yes, digital hardware generally lasts a long time, and as long as (but only as long as) P2-style media remains relatively expensive, folks will use it more like a digital data memory chip than a digital data storage tape. But comparing a camera's memory reuse to how many videotapes you won't have to buy seems a bit silly. For example, in the case of my digital snapshot _still_ camera I don't buy real film anymore and have never gotten a wet-process old fashioned print made from any of the snapshots, but I sure am buying heaps o' paper & ink for printouts and stacks o' blank CDs & DVDs to make backups!
So, sure, with P2-style chip media we'll gradually buy less & less videotape (eventually), but we'll instead buy heaps o' other stuff: optical disks, data-tape, harddrives, network capacity, and so forth.
Saying P2-style chip media will save money or time is like saying office computers will save paper or time. It just isn't true! It's not a reason not to use P2 or computers, but IMHO it's a false arguement.
[Luis Caffesse]"... A 4gb P2 card DOES NOT COST [some large number].
... The current price of a 4GB P2 card is about [some large number], and the 2GB P2 card is now under [some slightly less large nuber]. Prices are expected to drop ... The point here is that many seem to be bashing this new camera based on the cost of P2 memory a year ago. ..."
Bashing? Bashing? Who's bashing? Me, I'm just trying to sort out this brilliant, blinding new future being thrust in our laps -- damn!, where did I put my sunglasses _this_ time?!
Whatever the cost of P2 cards this week, or last, or next, everyone agrees they're curently more than "free" and less than what they'll eventually be. And it's fair to say they cost w-a-y more than even the most over-priced & hyped tape-based media. For the time being. Tune in next month. ;-)
And I hope for the sake of better quality TV news coverage -- for a while at least I can see stingy news producers & executives screaming about the current high cost of P2 chips, and exorting their crews to "do more with less!", much to our news-watching detriment -- the intro of a new, small P2-based camera while cause at least some downward push on P2 pricing.
But I sincerly hope the chips inside a P2 card are actually similar enough to (or the same as?) the chips Mom & Dad & Grandma & everyone else puts in their digital _still_ cameras, because in the near term that's the only hope we have of P2-style chips comiong w-a-y w-a-y down in price anytime soon.
As for "P2" itself being an open standard that other company can manufacture: I hope this is true, but again this hasn't always produced miracles in terms of low, low prices. So the jury is out on this one; here's hoping.
[Luis Caffesse]"... A 4GB card will hold more than 5 minutes of DVCProHD footage if shot at 24fps. ...""
I've seen those projections, and they seem sensible, but until the specs of the new cam are released all these numbers are wishful thinking -- wishes I sincerely share!
Actually, speaking of "shifts", I sure "wish" there'd be more talk about why or why not this cam (or any cam short of a Viper) should have a (reasonably-priced option or built-in) high-speed digital data port which enables output of _RAW_ image data! This is in addition to a compressed data stream like which we're already accustomed to. Give us _all_ the data recording capability we paid for when we bought the camera, please!
In these digital times, now _that's_ a feature a computer geek like me can warm up to! But it's probably just wishful shifting on my part ...
All the best,
- Peter
P.S.: Tape Is dead -- Long Live Tape!
P.P.S.: Oh, and: P2 is gonna rock our world! (Already has?)
Re: Considerations and Consequences of P2 technology by Luis Caffesse on Mar 28, 2005 at 7:39:28 pm
[Peter DeCrescenzo]"Saying P2-style chip media will save money or time is like saying office computers will save paper or time. It just isn't true! It's not a reason not to use P2 or computers, but IMHO it's a false arguement."
You are right, and perhaps I should clarify.
I did not intend to make the argument that using P2 will save money or time, only that I don't expect it to cost us MORE money and time than we are currently spending on tape.
I realize it seems like a lot of money upfront, but I do think that for the professional who is shooting on a regular basis, these cards will pay for themselves rather quickly.
So, my point was only that while P2 cards are a big investment up front (no way around that), there are other places where costs are saved (no need to buy future tapes, no need for a deck, etc). So in the end, it may wind up breaking even.
I suppose we'll all have a much better idea come NAB.
Re: Considerations and Consequences of P2 technology by Graeme Nattress on Mar 28, 2005 at 8:17:20 pm
I think money saving will come in if the format is zero-hassle in terms of not having the kinds of capture problems that can occur with dropped frames, missing timecode, and all those kinds of things that crop up every now and again. But as for money saving in general - I doubt it.
P2 cards are 100% "Media". The pure definition of Media supports that by PappasArts on Mar 28, 2005 at 8:37:12 pm
[Luis Caffesse]"P2 cards require a shift in thinking. They are not 'media' in the way we think of tapes today, instead they should be viewed as 'memory,' the way we view hard drives today."
P2 cards are 100% "Media". The pure definition of Media supports that.
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Definitions for Media
1. Objects on which data can be stored. These include hard disks, floppy disks, CD-ROMs, and tapes. 2. The form and technology used to communicate information. Multimedia presentations, for example, combine sound, pictures, and videos, all of which are different types of media.
noun: a means or instrumentality for storing or communicating information.
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I have ten times more supporting evidence that supports this, but I believe this summed it up.
We're now seeing consumer cameras with little memory chips that don't have any tape and record direc to MPEG4, digital stills cameras again will record compressed video to memory, and I'm personally finding that very convenient!
Now we're looking at P2 memory to record high quality high definition video. I think it's a wonderful step forwards, but I'm concerned about the holes in the workflow - like the little hard dsc dumper that Panasonic announced has a 60GB hard drive - is tha a joke? And "media" for long term storage. I'd personally like to see a nice magneto-optical solution due to their robustness.
Re: P2 cards are 100% "Media". The pure definition of Media supports that by PappasArts on Mar 28, 2005 at 8:43:20 pm
Graeme that Stone tape is wild.
These are very radical changing times. DV to HD, then tape media to memory chip based or hard drive media in under ten years. What's next. Now if I can record DVCPRO HD to a stone that would be some rock solid media.........
Re: P2 cards are 100% "Media". The pure definition of Media supports that by Graeme Nattress on Mar 28, 2005 at 10:40:26 pm
The BBC are also putting out the entire Quatermass on DVD, and indeed, doing a remake of The Quatermass Experiment, Live as part of a season of programmes looking at old TV. Neale's 1984 (1954) with Peter Cushing is also superb and worth watching, but the DVD of that is delayed...
Thanks Ron! by PappasArts on Mar 28, 2005 at 9:07:31 pm
Your welcome Ron!
Your board is vast, and I can imagine what it's like to monitor it. I have a multiple monitor system so I will have so much data in front of me that I can mess up like that from time to time.
I will be honest, I'm everywhere on the net but there are only three forums hot-keyed in my top browser menu board. Creative-Cow, Chris Hurds DVinfo and DVXuser. I am new to DVX though. These boards I value immensely because I love communication. The old days of newsgroups were great for this, but have died off compared to the mid 90's. These boards are the new ground for sharing ideas and communication among us. I look forward to a time, and I believe in the next ten years where boards like these may start to go virtual and we will navigate through the forums like going down a promenade and will see friends as 3D icons hanging out in virtual digital cafes etc. Virtual classroom discussions where you might invite a speaker and we the audience will sit in a room and watch it like were actually there. I better stop this diatribe on the future of forums or it will get long. In short, I'm grateful that you offer us this board full of forums of wonderful people of all types to share and communicate to one another. Thank You!
Re: P2 cards are 100% "Media". The pure definition of Media supports that by Jan Crittenden on Mar 28, 2005 at 9:30:32 pm
Michael,
I think what Luis was saying was unlike tape media, we cannot think of these P2 Cards as Media or we would go broke. Yes do they fit you dictionary version of the Media, yes, does it fit the application the way that tape does though and I think that was Luis' point. I routinely call this a media-less camcorder.
Anyhow as you point out, this will be interesting looking at the workflow for P2.
Best,
Jan
Jan M. Crittenden
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems
Re: P2 cards are 100% "Media". The pure definition of Media supports that by shooter on Mar 28, 2005 at 11:15:43 pm
When one talks about the cost savings of P2 vs. tape, you must add in the costs of dealing with this system. A large segment of the business is done by producers that want to walk away at the end of the day with 'footage' in hand.
So I'll need to bring a laptop or some other device along and a P2 card reader and DVD-RAM discs or some similar media. This gear, whatever form it takes, costs more money. The disc I burn onto costs money, probably about the same as a DV tape. And of most concern to me is the time involved. We out here in the production world already have lots of pressures to get the shots before the sun goes down, etc. and smaller and smaller crews to do it all with. The producer wants to dash off to jump on a plane. The transfer/loading of material by an editor, or an assistant, is a much more realistic method.
Now if the costs come down to near the cost of tape and I can pass these cards out like candy, then I can bill for them as an expendable and you have a great system.
If the cards drop by 50% per year, (less than that so far) then the 4G card will go from $1700 to $800 to $400 to $200 to $100 to $50 to $25 and now you have a winner. But that took 6 years. By then there will be some other newer, better technology available.
Sorry but in my opinion, XDCAm or some variation on that theme is much more viable for the immediate future for most of the production world. Not all, for sure, but for mainstream production.
Re: P2 cards are 100% "Media". The pure definition of Media supports that by Luis Caffesse on Mar 28, 2005 at 11:31:47 pm
Why not back up all the footage to an external firewire or USB drive?
Gig for Gig it would be cheaper than using DVD-R, or running it off to tape.
I'm sure most producers would be happy to take a hard drive with all their footage on it. It saves them the logging/digitizing costs in post. Now when they walk into an edit suite they can get right to work.
Re: P2 cards are 100% "Media". The pure definition of Media supports that by NICK B on Mar 28, 2005 at 11:49:19 pm
I just had a thought that a 'rental' market could develop for P2 media, you might own say 16Gigs and on an occasional long shoot rent say another 16Gig when you realy need it, then with a laptop / hard disk you have got it covered.
I am coming round to believing in P2 rather than XDCAM
Re: P2 cards are 100% "Media". The pure definition of Media supports that by Graeme Nattress on Mar 29, 2005 at 12:31:43 am
Perhaps.... But XDCAM is really just another "tape", just flatter, rounder and still mechanical. P2 is the first non-mechanical way to store video in a camera, and the first that truely recognises that such storage is temporary.
Re: P2 cards are 100% "Media". The pure definition of Media supports that by tony salgado on Mar 29, 2005 at 12:32:55 am
If everyone will visit the Panasonic website (hit the P2 logo at the top left corner) and read up on the info Panasonic is providing for P2 cameras and vtr's etc you will clearly see that the intended market is News gathering. P2 is the perfect application for ENG given the speed and short life span of the material. FYI I only saw Window's PC applications no Mac based options for the editing workflow.
"Shooter" brings up an important factor regarding the immediate need for a producer to walk away with tapes in hand. In the world of non news gathering where the material is needed for long term purposes it is impossible to believe that a producer would currently pay a steep price for the P2 media when tape is still a economical option. In addition no freelancer will be willing to invest in P2 media as a rental item given the fact he may or may not have the card returned to him in time to allow for another "recording rental". The cost of investment for the P2 media must rest with the producer not the crew or rental house just like with tape media. Anyone who has real world experience with producers will relate to exactly what I am referring to. Those who do have not real world experience with producers because they spend their time behind a test bench reading brochures will never understand the point I bring up.
I don't doubt that once the P2 media cost drops to under $30 to compete with XDCAM that an overwhelming majority of tape based user's will consider switching over.
Re: P2 cards are 100% "Media". The pure definition of Media supports that by Luis Caffesse on Mar 29, 2005 at 12:47:04 am
[i]"The cost of investment for the P2 media must rest with the producer not the crew or rental house just like with tape media.[/i]
The problem with that line of thought is that it is equating tape with P2 cards. That would be like viewing DVD-R and hard drives as the same thing.
The producer may very well pay a rental fee on the P2 cards as part of the camera package. Now, the cost of the media handed off to the producer can easily be passed along to the producer (i.e. hard drives, or whatever other medium they prefer).
[i]Anyone who has real world experience with producers will relate to exactly what I am referring to.[/i]
I can relate to what you're saying, and I agree that it may be a tough sell for a producer the first time out. However, I think that after 1 job with this workflow you'll get that producer's business again. They will save time and money in post thanks to the P2 aquisition.
Again, this isn't for everyone. But I think those producers who see the value in P2 will flock to it rather quickly.
Re: P2 cards are 100% "Media". The pure definition of Media supports that by tony salgado on Mar 29, 2005 at 3:08:26 am
Luis,
I have to agree to disagree with you.
In the world of ENG this workflow is quite acceptable. I could even imagine news crews exchanging P2 card with producers.
But in the world of non ENG production no producer could easily be convinced to pay a daily rental rate for a P2 card on an ongoing basis.
Producers are the most difficult persons to convince to accept a new technology that cost more than existing means. Producers exist for one reason only to squeeze the budget to it's maximum.
News operations are basically production islands onto themselves and the P2 workflow is ideal for that world.
Re: P2 cards are 100% "Media". The pure definition of Media supports that by Luis Caffesse on Mar 29, 2005 at 3:17:24 am
[tony salgado]"in the world of non ENG production no producer could easily be convinced to pay a daily rental rate for a P2 card on an ongoing basis.
Wouldn't the producer simply pay for the rental rate of the camera package?
Why wouldn't the rental rate for the P2 card be bundled into the camera package price? That's how I would assume it would work.
When I rent out myself, with my gear included, I don't charge a producer for the mattebox I use (for example). It's simply part of my kit, and I charge a daily rate which covers my entire camera package.
Producers are the most difficult persons to convince to accept a new technology that cost more than existing means.
I don't think shooting on P2 would cost a producer extra. It would be a large initial investment for the cameraperson who bought the P2 cards. In fact, on an HD shoot it could wind up being cheaper for a producer, who would only wind up paying for an external hard drive on which to carry home all his footage (and at a certain point Hard drives become cheaper than HD tape).
Luis Caffesse
Studio 3 Productions, Inc.
Austin, Texas
Re: P2 cards are 100% "Media". The pure definition of Media supports that by Jan Crittenden on Mar 29, 2005 at 3:47:39 pm
Shooter said: If the cards drop by 50% per year, (less than that so far) then the 4G card will go from $1700 to $800 to $400 to $200 to $100 to $50 to $25 and now you have a winner. But that took 6 years. By then there will be some other newer, better technology available.
Hey Shooter,
When we delivered the 2GB card last August of 2004 it priced out at about $2000 and today it is at $900, let's see that is 8 months. My 64KB SD card which I bought in May of 2002 cost me $129 and in October when I purchased again, it cost me $29.95. When the 1Gb SD card was introduced in November of 2004 at $390 is now at $90, and in fact the 2 GB SD card is at $180 already. Moore's law will not be denied. I remember thinking I had the hot PC setup with my Apple IIe+ with 128K of ram in 1985. I remember spending $1000 for a 500MB Hard Drive to add to my Mac in 1990. Don't try to set this in stone, it isn't possible. Spend the energy trying to figure out if there is a way to make it work.
If we look at these as if they are consumable media, yeah this would be pricey, but it is not, it is reuseable memory. Yes the tape workflow is known, is comfy, but it doesn't offer this huge advantage, I can't get a Varicam for under $10,000. In fact I can't get the transport and head drum for $10,000. It is because we now can remove this costly piece of the product that the advantage of working in DVCPRO HD is even possible. And remember there are no moving parts.
We need to rethink the workflow to see if there is a way to take advantage of the fact that P2 is bringing DVCPRO HD to a price point under $10,000. And all we need to do is figure out how it can work for you. It doesn't have to work the same way for every one, but my feeling is that it can work for many, it is just a rethink on the workflow. It is breaking out of the box, and thinking differently that can make this happen.
My .02,
Jan
Jan M. Crittenden
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems
Re: P2 cards are 100% "Media". The pure definition of Media supports that by Luis Caffesse on Mar 29, 2005 at 4:00:58 pm
[Jan Crittenden]"We need to rethink the workflow to see if there is a way to take advantage of the fact that P2 is bringing DVCPRO HD to a price point under $10,000"
While many seem to be thinking that the P2 workflow is much too expensive, I for one am incredibly excited. I was discussing this with a friend of mine last night.... and to put this technology in perspective think about what it would cost you to shoot DVCProHD 24fps today.
You would easily spend over $82,000 today.
Compare that to the 'under 10,000' pricetag that we've heard for the new camera. That's roughly 1/10th of the cost.
I know what some of you are thinking....
"Yeah, but this new camera isn't going to replace the Varicam"
I realize that....
But seeing as Jan has said she can see this camera being used as a second camera on Varicam shoots, I think it's safe to say that the quality will not be 1/10th that of the Varicam.
People seem to be getting hung up on the cost of P2 cards (when we don't even know what the price will actually be) and meanwhile brushing over the fact that we are seeing the advent of truly affordable HD.
Yes, P2 brings with it an upfront investment for the memory, but it also does away with many of the high ticket items we had to buy in the past to be able to shoot the same uncompromised HD format.
Luis Caffesse
Studio 3 Productions, Inc.
Austin, Texas
Re: P2 cards are 100% "Media". The pure definition of Media supports that by PappasArts on Mar 29, 2005 at 4:31:03 pm
The price that Jan posted is P2 in a niche, very niche area in this current market place. Now when Panasonic releases this new P2 reusable digital video media ( RDVM - There's an acronym for yeah! ) to a much larger market base throughout the world the price/msrp is going to be readjusted to reflect the market value that this new base of buyers will pay and it's also going to lower because the volume consumption increase of the product in that market place.
Am I right Jan?
I look forward to this camera and doing away with tape.
I have already worked out how this process will work in my studio on paper. It pretty much is matching the way I work in my Photography studio, how the flow is going to move from pre to production, to post and completion. I am loving it and I have not even had a chance touch it.
Jan I posted a question for you on another board, did u overlook it!
Re: P2 cards are 100% "Media". The pure definition of Media supports that by Jan Crittenden on Mar 29, 2005 at 4:38:42 pm
Hi Michael,
Am I right Jan?
Yep.
>I look forward to this camera and doing away with tape.
>I have already worked out how this process will work in my studio on paper. It pretty much is matching the way I work in my Photography studio, how the flow is going to move from pre to production, to post and completion. I am loving it and I have not even had a chance touch it.
I think you have it!
>Jan I posted a question for you on another board, did u overlook it!
I'll go take a look. It has been a busy morning.
Best,
Jan
Jan M. Crittenden
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems
Re: P2 cards are 100% "Media". The pure definition of Media supports that by Barry Green on Mar 29, 2005 at 10:50:42 pm
Apple is one of the P2 partners, IINM, and I believe we saw an announcement from an Apple rep saying that they would specifically be announcing P2 support in FCP at NAB. In fact that raised some eyebrows, as we wondered what that meant, but maybe it's just referring to the file structure of the cards.
And, of course, FCP-HD can currently edit DVCPRO-HD and DVCPRO50 natively, so I think the safe answer is YES, you'll have 100% integration in FCP.
Re: P2 cards are 100% "Media". The pure definition of Media supports that by Graeme Nattress on Mar 31, 2005 at 1:14:19 am
That's 23GB of storage that's not fast enough for the type of HD you'd want to put on it, and it's large, mechanical, and perhaps the 7yr warranty is there for a reason. Optical discs are great for longer term storage, but for a camera?? You may as well use tape.
Re: P2 cards are 100% "Media". The pure definition of Media supports that by Jan Crittenden on Mar 31, 2005 at 11:10:51 am
Zane said: the answer to p2 is easy XDCAM 23gbs of storage for less then 30 bucks sounds like a much better deal to me and plus they have 7 year warranties
Zane, I think you are confused, I don't see anyone here looking to switch away from P2 to something else, they are merely looking to understand it. If they were looking to stay with the tape based paradigm, then the XDCAM model is there, and they understand that. Because there are still moving parts not only in the XDCAM camera but also in the disk, there is likely a need for that 7 year warranty. Granted the disk is only moving when in the camcorder, but is it covered with that warranty if it is dropped?
Best regards,
Jan
Jan M. Crittenden
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems
Re: P2 cards are 100% "Media". The pure definition of Media supports that by Jan Crittenden on Apr 1, 2005 at 3:12:56 pm
I saw that as well, I think the target price without lens is @$25,000. And there you would dinitely need to or at least want to have a deck of sorts, might be a drive. Since it is a Sony only media, and the only one that does HDV, what would edit it? They are upping the data rate, to aid the bit-starved nature of HDV, but are all of the platforms that are prepping to edit HDV are they prepared to edit higher bit rate with shorter GOPs?
I wonder,
Jan
Jan M. Crittenden
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems
