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ECinema and Apple Cinema Display questions

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Bruce SchultzECinema and Apple Cinema Display questions
by on Mar 1, 2004 at 9:14:21 pm

In compiling data about HD display systems, I have come across the ECinema EPD100 HDSDI>DVI unit. This system appears to be a very well designed and thought out alternative to the bulky HD-CRT displays, however, I was curious if anyone is using this system, and if so is it working as expected?

Also, how does this $8K ECinema
(http://www.ecinemasys.com/products/edp100/edp100_intro.htm)
unit differ from the
Doremilabs (http://www.doremilabs.com/products/HDVI-10.htm)
and
Miranda Technologies (http://www.miranda.com/product.php?i=250&l=1) competing devices,
besides price? All claim to not introduce artifacts and scaling, but I'm wondering just what makes this ECinema unit so much more expensive.





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Nate CaplinRe: ECinema and Apple Cinema Display questions
by on Mar 2, 2004 at 12:39:26 am

Haven't personally used any of these, but Gefen has a similar product, too, for $1,000. They were showing it at MW Expo San Francisco this past January. I didn't pay that much attention at the time, but it looked pretty decent.

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=2043

---
Nate Caplin
Manager of Webcasting and Streaming Media, American Electric Power, Columbus, Ohio

Also available for private consulting on issues of web video compression, digital edit systems & HD acquisition


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jean-yves le moineRe: ECinema and Apple Cinema Display questions
by on Mar 2, 2004 at 7:56:31 pm

the doremi product and the gefen are the same made by doremi

jean-yves le moine

temps réel productions
paris, france
jylem@temps-reel.fr


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Bruce SchultzRe: ECinema and Apple Cinema Display questions
by on Mar 3, 2004 at 6:04:53 pm

It's beginning to look like no one has direct experience with any of these aforementioned units. Looks like I'll have to budget some extra time at NAB to look into this more fully.


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mishkaRe: ECinema and Apple Cinema Display questions
by on Mar 6, 2004 at 11:26:03 pm

When similar question was asked at HD Cow the engineer behind eCinema posted some answers. Seems this box is more advanced indeed like you can load LUT's into it.


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Filip VandoorneRe: ECinema and Apple Cinema Display questions
by on Mar 8, 2004 at 10:45:19 pm

only the ecinema unit can work at full 1920x1080 resolution on the apple 23".
the doremi labs hdvi10 does a -very good- downconvert to a dvi signal 1280x1024 with black bars or a full 1280x720


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Martin EuredjianRe: ECinema and Apple Cinema Display questions
by on Mar 15, 2004 at 9:43:28 pm

Sorry for not having caught your post earlier.

The EDP100 is the only solution that:

- Drives the Apple HD Cinema Display
- Delivers a true pixel-for-pixel full HD resolution picture via that display
- Works at all input frame rates and resolutions with the supported displays
- Was designed to compete with Sony's US$35K and US$45K monitors, not to be a cheap converter (the latter necesitating all sorts of compromises in processing).
- Has an (optional) state of the art Graticule (Cage, Frame Line, Safe Action, depending on your region) generator.
- Has programmable LUT's for calibration, creative or engineering purposes.
- ...and more.

The products you listed are not in the same range. They are designed from a different perspective. The idea there is to put an image on an LCD as inexpensively as possible. Today you could do that for less than US$600 retail, if you really wanted to. But, you woudn't have a picture that would be QC quality, which is what the EDP100 delivers. In fact, I met the folks who have this very low cost solution (a home-theater vendor), so, Doremi and Miranda will have to compare to that offering, which is very good, and the guys are great. But, still, it's a full time scaler, with all the accompanying issues.



There are a few easy tests you can run on your own if evaluating any monitoring
solution:

First, run a geometry test. Having access to a system where you can create your own HD test frames is useful here. Say, Photoshop on a G5 with DecklinkHD. You need a frame with a single pixel line along the periphery of the active video area. In other words, a black frame with the outermost pixel painted white. Then draw the two diagonals and five circles (one in the center and one in each quadrant). You will be looking for the display system delivering the full image edge-to-edge and top-to-bottom as well as not introducing significant geometric distortion.

Second, run a frequency response test. I prefer a 30MHz sweep. Multiburst only gives you a few frequency samples. I find that some monitors do pretty well with traditional Multiburst but fail to pass the frequency sweep. Basicly, processing/technology artifacts are much more visible using a sweep.

Then you can look at other signals to inspect color response, motion, etc. Of particular interest might be an examination of how PsF material is treated. PsF, as you may know, is Progressive material that is simply transported as though it were interlaced. The cheapest way to make an HD to DVI converter is to treat it all like interlaced and use a cheap home-theater processing chip. You can see this effect very clearly because, if you park on an frame with very fine detail a solution that treats PsF like interlaced will flicker, very severely sometimes (BTW, this is what you get if you spend $45K and buy a 150lbs Sony CRT). The EDP100 is the only solution that treats progressive material as, well, progressive.

There are much more subtle issues, like, for example, applying motion-adaptive de-interlacing algorithms to PsF material (again, to build'em cheap you have to use substandard solutions) which is as wrong as you can go in the context of a professional product.

In general terms, I request that the EDP100 be evaluated against the most expensive and most capable monitor at a facility. That, generally speaking, often turns out to be a Sony BVM-D24, BVM-F24 or BVM-D32. That's the standard we go up against. The low cost converters don't last but 30 seconds in this comparison. Which, by the way will be prominently featured in our booth at NAB.

If you are attending NAB, please stop by the booth (SL2756). I'd be happy to show you.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Martin Euredjian
eCinema Systems, Inc.
voice: 661-305-9320
fax: 661-775-4876
martin@ecinemasys.com
ecinema@ieee.org
http://www.ecinemasys.com








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ToddRe: ECinema and Apple Cinema Display questions
by on Mar 16, 2004 at 1:15:39 am

Martin-

Perhaps this is a silly question- but how would your setup with an Apple 23" Monitor compare to the Sony LMD230WS LCD Monitor with the HDSDI input?

Todd
FryFilms


G5 d2Ghz, 1.5gigRAM, OSX 10.3.1, MedeaRT320, Atto UL3D, FCP 4.1, AJA IO


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Martin EuredjianRe: ECinema and Apple Cinema Display questions
by on Mar 16, 2004 at 2:18:51 am

> how would your setup with an Apple 23" Monitor compare to the Sony LMD230WS LCD Monitor with the HDSDI input?


The LMD230WS has a resolution of 1280 x 768 (http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Professional/docs/brochures/lmd230170wsnew.pdf). This means that a scaler is used 100% of the time. If you run the tests I mentioned you'll see serious deficiencies in frequency response, a clear indication that the full resolution of the input standard is not being displayed.

It doesn't have a graticule generator, even as an option. You'll have to spend a minimum of about $6500 for an external Evertz grat. gen. That's a deal-breaker right there (if you need one).

I also think that the Apple HD Cinema Display is a much better TFT panel.

I do like the control panel on the LMD though. The EDP100 has a serial port to accomodate a much more sophisticated control panel if necessary (even remote control) but we haven't had requests for this yet.


If you don't need true-pixel display, wait. Solutions for much less than $1,000 are in the horizon (per my prior post, I've alredy seen one). BTW, in case you are wondering, we do not have a business relationship with the vendor.



Martin Euredjian
eCinema Systems, Inc.
http://www.ecinemasys.com




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